Joined: Aug 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 261 Karma: 21
Re: Sleep @ 1st level « Reply #15 on Jun 5, 2012, 10:17am »
It doesn't have to be a TPK. Maybe the wandering magic users put the PCs to sleep and then, instead of killing them, take them prisoner, strip them of their gear, and bring them to their lair on dungeon level 2...
Joined: Jul 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 561 Karma: 17
Re: Sleep @ 1st level « Reply #16 on Jun 5, 2012, 10:19am »
personally, I'd beef up supplement I magic missile to the power of sleep and charm person, rather than toning down sleep. If you are only going to get a single spell to memorize, it should be a game changer.
Re: Sleep @ 1st level « Reply #17 on Jun 5, 2012, 10:56am »
As I pointed out in the Holmes section below, I just began a new campaign using B2 and I have actually run into this. Keep in mind, this will be tinged by Holmes and may not marry up 100% with LBB rules...
Sleep IS far more powerful than any other 1st level offensive spell. Magic Missile - a long standing fav 1st level spell in D&D of all flavors - pales by comparison. Even with Holmes 2-7 damage (later changed to 2-5 in other editions) the damage averages out to 4.5 points. My group playing B2 had their first encounter with a pack of wolves in the wilderness. I use d6 for monster HD and give wolves 1+1. The four wolves had 6,5,4, and 3 hp (rolled, not assigned). There was a 50% chance that a magic users ONLY spell of the day would fail to kill one of the wolves if he rolled average (4.5) damage.
Sleep OTOH is instant win depending on what rules you are using. Holmes 2-16 is an average of 9 creatures of 1 or 1+1 HD. In that scenario (the one my players happened to be in) the sleep spell wins the day - period. Likewise, if an ogre were encountered - 4HD or so depending on what version of the rules you are using, magic missile is all but useless compared to sleep.
So is it overpowered? Yeah, probably. The thing is, it is also married to a system where the low level caster is a 'one and done' one trick pony.
I agree with cooper that if you are going to limit the casters to their one spell - it should have a pretty decent effect..
or...
What I did in my game was tone down sleep by allowing a saving throw - BUT... I house ruled some things to help out the one trick pony a bit.
Firstly, a magic user with a 15+ intelligence can memorize 1 additional spell per day - it can be of any level he can cast, but only 1 spell. Also, any magic user with an 18 intelligence gains a second 'bonus spell'. Keep in mind, I do 3d6 assign as desired fro stats - your chances of an 18 are pretty d**n slim.
Second, I allow magic users to memorize a number of extra spells equal to their intelligence - 10. Note that is not CAST that many. Just memorize. So a magic user with a 13 intelligence can memorize sleep, magic missile and charm person at 1st level. He can only cast ONE of them, but he has the flexibility to pick from three.
Finally, I allow any weapon and armor a magic user wishes to use. However, a magic user still CANNOT cast spells while wearing armor.
Anyway, a bit off topic, but the point is, I think the sleep spell's power was a reaction by designers to the need for a magic user to have some game changer to call on. In the end, I think it was too tough - especially the 2-16 creatures effect.
It doesn't have to be a TPK. Maybe the wandering magic users put the PCs to sleep and then, instead of killing them, take them prisoner, strip them of their gear, and bring them to their lair on dungeon level 2...
This is a good point. It could definitely lead to those situations that Holmes was wanting to simulate, like when Conan or John Carter get thumped on the head and wake up in some antediluvian/martian slavepit. (Dragon #52, p17)
Also, there ought to be some possibility that the monster MU has already used his sleep spell for the day. I mean, he has been wandering around in the dungeon just like the PCs.
Re: Sleep @ 1st level « Reply #19 on Jun 5, 2012, 12:30pm »
Hey there...just wanted to throw my 2 cents into the great 'Sleep' debate....
I too think that Sleep is an overpowered 1st Level spell; but I think a couple of things can be done to mitigate it.
(Please note, I do not yet own the LBBs; so I don't know what the rules are in those books)
First thing; I'd give all targets of a Sleep spell a Saving Throw vs. Spells; while I don't know what the Tables in the LBBs give monsters for Saving Throws; I'm guessing for 1-4 HD creatures the numbers are probably all in the 12-16 or so range. In other words; every creature has a better than 50% chance of falling asleep. This is still, in my opinion, pretty d**n powerful for a 1st Level Spell!
Second: I'd say all creatures that fail thier Saving Throws spend at least 1 Turn (10 rounds) asleep if not prodded awake. If you'd like to use a more random die-roll method to determine how long they sleep and/or have Tougher creatures sleep shorter times than weaker ones; cool.
Third: I'd have the Level fo the Wizard vs. the HD of the targets interact with a Saving Throw modifier....off the top of my head; why not say; Caster's Level - Target's HD (ignoring pluses; i.e. a 2+1 HD creature is 2 HD for this purpose). The resulting number is the + or - number to the Saving Throw of the creature. (With or without the caveat that a natural 20 always succeeds and a natural 1 always fails)
This way; a 1st Level MU can cast sleep at a party of Orcs; they have no modifier to thier Saving Throws (1st Level - 1 HD = 0); and he has a pretty d**n good chance of affecting a significant number of them...though, with enough randomness to make the spell INTERESTING and DIFFERENT each time its cast.
Then again; if that same 1st Level MU casts the spell at a 4HD Ogre; the Ogre gets a +3 bonus to his Saving Throw...making it a much less certain encounter.
However; then the Mage becomes a bad-ass 9th level MU; a pack of Orcs are subtracting 8 from thier Saving Throws. (9th Level - 1 HD)
Finally; even if the targets pass thier Saving Throw; they lose thier actions that round as they blink themselves back to full awareness. This makes the Spell STILL usefull when a serious threat approaches; yet not overpowering so; in my opinion.
Re: Sleep @ 1st level « Reply #20 on Jun 5, 2012, 1:05pm »
Big thumbs up on the lost action for the round while they fight off the effects - I really like it!
I'm also all in favor of the +/- to the save based on level/HD disparity.
One of the things I have been trying to do in my campaign has been to 'adjust' some spells. Certain effects like dancing lights and light just don't seem to 'stack up' as full fledged spells. I really think the idea (thought not always the execution) of cantrips in later editions was trying to fix this.
Likewise, every magic user in my game world can cast detect magic and read magic everyday for free for every level of experience he/she has. It just gives them a more 'mystic' quality IMO.
Re: Sleep @ 1st level « Reply #21 on Jun 5, 2012, 5:16pm »
Thanks for all the help people.
I'm going to make monsters do saving throws and if they fail their throw then they fall asleep for 1d4 turn(s). Monsters that pass their saving throw are a bit dazed for that turn and lose their actions.
I'm very, very nervous about changing the Sleep spell. Without it, a dozen orcs have a strong chance of a TPK against your typical first level adventuring party.
Also, whaddaya mean referees don't use it against players? Like fun! There's a reason that "Men" are the most dreaded monster encounter there is.
Maybe not the Sleep spell itself, but I thought sleep gas traps were pretty standard. Sleep is basically what a DM uses instead of deadly poison... which means that monsters usually don't slaughter PCs in their sleep, because if *that* is what they wanted, why wouldn't they use poison gas?
I'm very, very nervous about changing the Sleep spell. Without it, a dozen orcs have a strong chance of a TPK against your typical first level adventuring party.
Depending on the size of the player party, a dozen Orcs could be a genuine challenge, for sure.
If the players are wont to rush right in to melee them on equal footing, they have thrown away their best chance of success and risk losses or a TPK.
If, on the other hand, they employ clever strategies, the players should have a very reasonable chance of success without needing a sleep spell. I.e., they could draw the Orcs into narrow passage where their numbers don't matter. They could puncture them with missile fire from afar then flee. They could set fire to the lair then hold a door fast against them while they burn. They could lead them into an ambush or trap set for the purpose. They could offer them food, beer or gold to come into their service. They could frighten them off with bravado, or some ribald pantomime. They could rout them with a cattle stampede. They could cause a rockfall. Just for starters... I'm sure players could come up with endless ideas I haven't ever thought of!
If they want to survive, players should only enter a fight when they have better than even chances of victory. Otherwise, they should use more ingenious methods. Sleep is one of them, sure, but it isn't the only one
Men and Magic does not state a duration for sleep, and nor does Greyhawk (but GH does state explicitly that no saving throw is allowed).
FWIW, Swords & Spells has the duration as 4-16 turns in the Spell Chart on page 12 (which references D&D for effects).
Quote:
In later editions Holmes states the duration of sleep as 4-16 turns, but immediately after restates it as 2-8 turns. These "turns" seem likely to mean "combat turns" (aka "melee rounds") as the modern terminology hadn't evolved yet.
The two different times in Holmes possibly arose when someone edited the "Duration" to reflect Swords & Spells but missed the separate listing in the description.
The turns in Holmes should either be 10 min (non-combat turns) or 100 sec (combat turns, which are 10 combat rounds of 10 sec each). Holmes never clearly states whether spell durations are shifted during combat. However, even if they are, and we take the shorter duration for sleep (2-8 turns), that's still 20 combat rounds at a minimum.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
It doesn't have to be a TPK. Maybe the wandering magic users put the PCs to sleep and then, instead of killing them, take them prisoner, strip them of their gear, and bring them to their lair on dungeon level 2...
This is a good point. It could definitely lead to those situations that Holmes was wanting to simulate, like when Conan or John Carter get thumped on the head and wake up in some antediluvian/martian slavepit. (Dragon #52, p17)
Also, there ought to be some possibility that the monster MU has already used his sleep spell for the day. I mean, he has been wandering around in the dungeon just like the PCs.
Those are good possibilities. Also, the MUs will not always be hostile to the party, since they can be any alignment, and can be subject to reaction rolls. But when the rules specify that more than 1 in 10 wandering monsters encounters are with MUs, there should still be a fair amount that are hostile, have their spells memorized, and will sleep and then kill the party at first opportunity. Particularly if the party is in turn killing monsters every time they put them to sleep.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Is there anyway to tone down this spell? It is way to powerful (at least I think so)...
Any suggestions?
I've struggled with this one too, considered a saving throw, limiting number of targets (further), that sort of thing. Apologies if my solution is a little too tangential.
I stumbled on the idea of emphasizing Vancian magic by restricting casters to only one memorization of a given spell per day. (This idea is probably from Jeff's Gameblog; I don't recall.) This seems to reflect a possible limit in the Dying Earth world, since spellcasters never prepare multiple versions of the same spell.
Even with this in place, Sleep still has its problems, but it becomes enormously more important to the low-level mage. That 'Get out of Jail Free' card feels more valuable when you know you don't have another in your pocket. Plus he's forced to know and use some of the neglected entries in his spellbook. It's all good.
I've used this house-rule in play and it works well.
I must protest bitterly that my aircraft still has not been painted red.
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 1,596 Location: Schenectady Karma: 73
Re: Sleep @ 1st level « Reply #28 on Jun 7, 2012, 9:41am »
It's been pointed out a couple times but, judging from many of the posts, seems to keep being missed.
There is nothing in the OD&D spell description to suggest the effect of "Sleep" is anything other than normal sleep.
So, your party "sleeps" a half dozen orcs. Maybe they could try to sneak past them, or maybe some genius decides to slit a throat. Any noise of significance should immediately awaken the rest of the orcs. They are asleep, not dead.
As I pointed out in the Holmes section below, I just began a new campaign using B2 and I have actually run into this. Keep in mind, this will be tinged by Holmes and may not marry up 100% with LBB rules...
So is it overpowered? Yeah, probably. The thing is, it is also married to a system where the low level caster is a 'one and done' one trick pony.
Off topic, I know, but no MU need be a one trick pony, especially in Holmes. Sure 1st level MU can only memorize one spell. So what? They can cast an unlimited number of spells of any level from scrolls. Any MU worth their salt would be carrying a fair few spells on their person, not simply relying on the one they have learned to hold in memory.
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