I don't see why dropping clerics would necessarily necessitate dropping the alignment system. No clerics != no gods
... And No Gods != No Alignment. Magic swords in particular play by alignment rules, and other items or monsters may have set reactions to Law or Chaos.
Because of Michael Moorcock and Poul Anderson (and also Gordon Dickson and a couple others,) Alignment is very Appendix N.
Re: Dropping the Cleric « Reply #17 on Apr 19, 2012, 7:32am »
I'm still tossing around ideas at this point and this thread certainly has given me an abundance of them, just out of curiosity Waysoftheearth how did you handle a healer class without clerical spells? I have also considered something along the lines of what Morandir mentioned where PCs gain a certain amount of hit points back over time after a combat, as I have always conceptualized most of a characters hit points to be more akin to stamina with real damage coming only at the lower end of the spectrum, I think this idea works fairly well with the idea of combat in a round being a series of thrusts and parries so to speak. Thank you to every one who has responded.
... And No Gods != No Alignment. Magic swords in particular play by alignment rules, and other items or monsters may have set reactions to Law or Chaos.
I don't quite see this connection.
I've always seen Law as being builders and Chaos as destroyers. Orcs like to burn things, but not because of a god told them to do it.
Or, if you like, think about Law as structure and Chaos as randomness. Fairies don't follow directions so they are chaotic.
The original alignment system was more of "us" against "them." Why would it have to be tied to religion?
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 308 Location: Ohio Karma: 27
Re: Dropping the Cleric « Reply #21 on Apr 19, 2012, 4:48pm »
That's what talysman was saying, Fin. Because gods and alignment aren't necessarily connected, you could have a game without religion but still have alignment because the forces of Law and Chaos are separate, primordial concepts.
That's what talysman was saying, Fin. Because gods and alignment aren't necessarily connected, you could have a game without religion but still have alignment because the forces of Law and Chaos are separate, primordial concepts.
Conversely, I have successfully run a campaign with clerics but without alignment. It is perfectly feasible to have gods of death, magic, time, love, the hunt, etc. in a world without Law vs. Chaos. In fact it is kind of fun for each god's clerics to have subtle beliefs and allegiances that are not defined by a polarizing alignment axis.
That's what talysman was saying, Fin. Because gods and alignment aren't necessarily connected, you could have a game without religion but still have alignment because the forces of Law and Chaos are separate, primordial concepts.
Thanks. Somehow I got exactly the opposite impression. Maybe I need more sleep.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
I wonder how Appendix N Magic Users really are as PCs anyway. For that matter, many of the monsters are rather more chivalric (in the way that the Medieval romances looted from Greco-Roman lore as well as Germanic and Celtic myth) than swords & sorcery, not to mention having non-human characters. My point, if I have one, is that a *lot* of the game as presented needs tweaking to make it swords & sorcery, not just the absence of the cleric.
You should see how little of the D&D rules I've been using lately. I bet they would fit on the front and back of a single sheet of paper. Of course, this is only from my point of view as the DM. The players are responsible for bringing whatever player books they need for their characters. If you want to play an AD&D paladin, you'd better bring the AD&D Players Handbook. If you want to play a C&C bard, you'd better bring the C&C Players Handbook. If you want to play an AD&D barbarian, you'd better bring Unearthed Arcana (or Dragon #63!). Etc. I'll allow anything in any pre-3rd edition rulebook, and I allow anything from C&C and the old HackMaster as well. Retro-clones? You betcha!
The thing is, I don't use ANY of that stuff for my NPCs. NPCs don't play by the rules.
Re: Dropping the Cleric « Reply #25 on Apr 19, 2012, 10:21pm »
We dropped the cleric for our Moldvay Wednesday game. An interesting emergent property is that HP totals matter a lot more. Players are making decisions about how far to push based on supplies and HP. The discussions around the table are really fascinating.
I did add in the Make Camp from Dungeon World. If you set up camp in the dungeon plus have food/water etc.. you can make a roll to see if you recover hit points but you also might get jumped.
Re: Dropping the Cleric « Reply #26 on Apr 19, 2012, 11:55pm »
When a player wants to run a cleric in my campaign, I make them design their own religion and the main god that they pray to.
This does not have to be terribly detailed, just a basic hierarchy of leadership as their character knows it, holy sites, rites etc. I can always add to it since it is from character knowledge not player knowledge.
Saves me time, presents ideas that I would never have, and the players love it.
When a player wants to run a cleric in my campaign, I make them design their own religion and the main god that they pray to.
Excellent idea tDE. When I drew up a religion template a year ago it was as a DM tool. It never entered my head to hand it to my players and tell them to fill it in. I reckon I might give this a go and expect a wild ride.
"If you like the idea of Blackadder II and Kit Marlowe getting drunk and fighting cultists and Spaniards in the London sprawl then check this baby out" - Jeff Rients
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