Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 323 Location: Leander, TX Karma: 14
Re: Thieves: Pro or Con? « Reply #30 on Feb 14, 2008, 12:01am »
To go along with what has been said, another problem with Thieves is that, when they're included, the party tends to check every door for traps. Even if the doors are totally identical.
In this way, it's like an arms race. Pity the poor DM who includes "antibacterial aerosol spray" on his homemade equipment list. It's a mathematical certainty that once that is done, the party is going to disinfect practially everything before they touch it. It would bring a new meaning to the "Monk" class. Once it's there, they'll assume that the DM is going to screw them if they don't use it.
----- DM: "Atop the glittering treasure horde of the slain wyrm sits an enormous, glittering, flawless diamond. You have never seen such beauty in your life - not even upon the Autocrat's diadem."
Player: "I Febreze it." -----
As a DM, I'd much rather just say "The door is unusual in that it has a leering skull carved in bas relief at about face level." Then hear what they think to do with it. Obviously you throw in a few red herrings just to keep things honest. But if they fling open the Skull Portal without even breaking out the 10' pole... well, I hope they had life insurance!
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Re: Thieves: Pro or Con? « Reply #31 on Feb 14, 2008, 12:12am »
I've thought a lot about this for my OD&D game, and I decided to stick to the original three without the thief.
As others have mentioned, the thief is a self-justifying class. More importantly, I'd rather the players use critical thinking and deduction to figure out traps, unlock doors, and so on. I'd prefer to allow any player of sufficient creativity and wits to figure a way past an obstacle. To me, that's the appeal of original D&D.
Re: Thieves: Pro or Con? « Reply #32 on Feb 17, 2008, 7:43pm »
Started with Holmes Basic and viewed Hobbits esp. as the odd-class out since there were thieves but halflings couldn't have those thief skills. It's only very recently that I've gotten versions of D&D without thieves & thief skills at all (OD&D & EPT) so this is something I'm reexamining.
Currently my thinking is: in a game with a thief class - allow at least halflings to either take that class or fold some of the skills in in a game without a thief class - try a halfling and see how it plays
Falconer Level 9 Sorcerer Cleric of OD&D member is offline
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Re: Thieves: Pro or Con? « Reply #35 on Mar 6, 2008, 2:12pm »
For my campaign, I figure the Elf and the Hobbit fill the niche quite sufficiently, albeit in different ways. If I weren’t doing a Middle-earth campaign right now but instead something like Hyborean Age, I might just rename them and tweak them. But I may have to rethink that when it comes to that point. Regards.
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
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Re: Thieves: Pro or Con? « Reply #36 on Mar 6, 2008, 3:58pm »
Quote:
Our dear Gary told me (I think in his ENWorld Q&A thread) that in his Greyhawk campaign very few of his players played thieves.
Yep. In fact, I believe Gary once said that Thieves were originally intended primarily as henchmen rather than PCs. They were specialists you brought with you if there were a particularly nasty trap you could disable on your own, but they weren't the stuff from which heroes were made.
Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 384 Location: Maryland, USA Karma: 26
Re: Thieves: Pro or Con? « Reply #37 on Mar 6, 2008, 4:58pm »
I recently stopped thinking of the Thief as one of the D&D archetypes. Now I've progressed to questioning WHY even have them? I must say that in my old AD&D campaigns, Thieves and even multi-classed Thieves probably made up less than 5% of the total character base.
I'm not sure why, and I don't recall designing my dungeons to cater for a lack of Thieves...my players just didn't like the role, I guess.
I've moved to the 'Thief skills as standard skills' camp, ala Open Doors or Hear Noise, I'm going to allow all characters to attempt to perform standard dungeon delving skills or tasks, such as hiding or moving silently, using 1d6 to determine success.
One of my oldest home brew AD&D campaigns had an Explorer class, which played like a Fighter/Thief, without pick pockets, kind of like a dungeon Ranger class. That said, I'm really into the three archetype structure right now, a thief is basically any person in the campaign who likes to rob other people (as is an assassin for that matter, except they accept payment for killing those people instead).
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Re: Thieves: Pro or Con? « Reply #38 on Mar 7, 2008, 12:25am »
Hmm. I think I'm completely unmoved by the arguments against thieves. I like them as a class, and I think they fit an archetype of a certain kind of hero-adventurer.
One of the things I have been considering has been to let *all* classes have some chance to do things thieves do, but thieves are the class that gets the regular boost in those areas. It's not that different from trained/untrained usage of weapons by fighters and non-fighters, conceptually speaking. Everybody can pick up a weapon, but fighters are the ones who use them well.
I will agree that there's a certain amount of chrome bolted onto the class of Thief which comes from all those percentages chances for things, but that's not that different from Rangers (who get all sorts of goodies as they advance). If I were to draw the line on classes that sound good but are mechanically flawed, I would have to say the original Strategic Review Bard: all fighter, half-MU, half-thief - and Charm and Lore options to boot! Two and a half characters for the price of one. THAT needs reworking.
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Re: Thieves: Pro or Con? « Reply #39 on Mar 7, 2008, 1:25pm »
Quote:
Hmm. I think I'm completely unmoved by the arguments against thieves. I like them as a class, and I think they fit an archetype of a certain kind of hero-adventurer.
One of the things I have been considering has been to let *all* classes have some chance to do things thieves do, but thieves are the class that gets the regular boost in those areas. It's not that different from trained/untrained usage of weapons by fighters and non-fighters, conceptually speaking. Everybody can pick up a weapon, but fighters are the ones who use them well.
I will agree that there's a certain amount of chrome bolted onto the class of Thief which comes from all those percentages chances for things, but that's not that different from Rangers (who get all sorts of goodies as they advance). If I were to draw the line on classes that sound good but are mechanically flawed, I would have to say the original Strategic Review Bard: all fighter, half-MU, half-thief - and Charm and Lore options to boot! Two and a half characters for the price of one. THAT needs reworking.
I use the bard from the SR but apply the following mods-
No spellcasting Fight as clerics Limited to leather and shield They can however cast MU spells on a scroll if they make their Lore skill roll at the time of casting.
themattjon Level 5 Thaumaturgist member is offline
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Re: Thieves: Pro or Con? « Reply #40 on Mar 7, 2008, 10:16pm »
Quote:
Quote:
Our dear Gary told me (I think in his ENWorld Q&A thread) that in his Greyhawk campaign very few of his players played thieves.
Yep. In fact, I believe Gary once said that Thieves were originally intended primarily as henchmen rather than PCs. They were specialists you brought with you if there were a particularly nasty trap you could disable on your own, but they weren't the stuff from which heroes were made.
This is how I read the "rules" from LBB to Greyhawk and beyond. It's the way I play my games. Any character can be stealthy, but if you want a job done real well, you hired a Thief on an expedition basis to get your way through; Dropping the bastard like a hot potato when the job's done. Paladins will NOT work with Thieves, period. So there!
Re: Thieves: Pro or Con? « Reply #41 on Apr 23, 2008, 4:29am »
I find the hate against thieves a little strange. If anything, a lot of heroes of the pre-D&D sword and sorcery genre are more like thieves than knight in shining armor- sneaking around forbidden tombs, motivated by money, wearing minimal armor. Stealth characters are supported by literary archetypes and utility in any almost any campaign. I think a lot of the hate comes from the hack-slash mentality: "Thieves are not fighters and can't blast stuff with fire so they are useless. Useless unless there is a trap but there shouldn't be traps because we can't kill them." Game mechanics encourage tanks because anyone with common sense wears the heaviest armor he or she can. If thieves are kept around, what changes (if any) should be made. In my humble opinion, a couple little tweaks can make them more potent without unbalancing them. (1) Whatever particular system you use for thieving skills, make sure the thief is competent in them and certainly more competent than untrained people. (2) Thieves get shafted in combat stats. They should not be a good as fighter but should be at least a good as clerics (d6 hp/ to hits/weapon damage). (3) Lastly, give thieves one pick of the goody tree to reflect their style: fighter hit dice, fighter thac0 with missile weapon, fighter thac0 with melee, mu or cleric scroll use, or some kind of dodge bonus. The fighter is the king of combat but thief should a decent second.
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Re: Thieves: Pro or Con? « Reply #42 on Apr 23, 2008, 6:59am »
I don't hate thieves, but recently (partially due to Philotomy's musings) I've come to appreciate the game without them. Want to search for traps? Describe how you do it and I'll see if you find them (if they are there). Want to move silently to infiltrate? Remove all of your armor and shed all of your extra belongings so that you don't make noise (there's a difference between just not wearing metal armor and wearing "sneaking attire"). Want to hide to ambush? Wear appropriate colored clothing and find the right spot. Climbing? Bring the right equipment. Many thief skills can be ad-hoc ruled.
So what do you do for a player who wants to play a "thief type" as a distinct type? Read the above, and also give him a chance to open lock and pick pockets (something reasonable, perhaps 3 in 6, allowing the victim to make a saving throw for the second).
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: Thieves: Pro or Con? « Reply #43 on Apr 23, 2008, 9:08am »
Just to point out -- this vote is a lot closer than I thought it would be. Clearly we have an equal split between the "LBB only" and "LBB plus" factions.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
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Re: Thieves: Pro or Con? « Reply #44 on Apr 23, 2008, 4:16pm »
I voted pro thief but while there is room for them in the game at large they really aren't needed in every style of campaign.
Historically thieves have been 20% or more of the party in campaigns I DM so the players i game with certianly enjoy thieves. Out of a party of about a dozen we had at least 4 thieves/multiclassed thieves on a regualr basis.
Thieves would be distateful to me in a chivalric campaign. Knightly daring-do doesn't work with backstabbing thieves in the party.
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