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Is Tegel Manor 1977 JG over-rated? « Thread Started on Aug 22, 2011, 6:55pm »
First, context. I am a big fan of the usual suspects from the Judges Guild, The first two Wilderlands books and the Jaquays material which I essentially rank as canon beside the core AOD&D. I am fond of FFC, Verbosh, the Ready Reference Sheets, CSIO and the brilliant concept of the Islands books.
Frankly without the Judges Guild material and leaning only on the TSR material AOD&D would be in some danger of being outranked by Runequest 2e with all the Glorantha material *if* a game system was being judged by a combination of rules & published support material.
So I value JG material very highly.
Now Tegel Manor '77. I can't for the life of me understand why this module is highly regarded by people whose opinion I value.
First the maps: The outdoor locale map is very good, I like it, however the Manor itself is a tedious rectilinear bore. It is like the whole thing was designed with sympathy for the mapping insecurities of players foremost in Bledsaw's mind. I strongly believe ease of mapping should never be a consideration in Dungeon design. I hate it. It looks terrible. It can't even claim to look terrible but be realistic. Possibly, possibly, it suffers from the North American notions of urban grid planning but I think it is a design decision to aid players to map the environment. All it has going for it is that it is very big and very complicated. In the end it is less interesting to explore or look at than one floor of a skyscraper.
Now the room entries: Please. Animated furniture, mundane critters, maiden is a polymorphed ogre, object or corpse crumbles to dust, moaning and gems. Have i missed anything? Room after room of this. No sense of environment. No purpose or meaning anywhere to cast light on this wacky gonzo museum. What kind of dungeoneer would explore this Manor unless he was cursed? Having gone through ten rooms like this why would anyone go through another fifty like it. Note Im not complaining about the brevity of the descriptions since I love the Wilderlands ones but these are formulaic and repetitive and don't fit together to create an environment.
So my concluding remark is that Tegel Manor for me is an anomaly and I fail to see why it deserves to be included with the good stuff.
Falconer Level 9 Sorcerer Cleric of OD&D member is offline
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Re: Is Tegel Manor 1977 JG over-rated? « Reply #1 on Aug 22, 2011, 9:17pm »
I dunno, dude, it looks like fun. I’m going to throw it into my next campaign, you know, as an option (players can go in and do as many or as few rooms as they want; they’ll have plenty of other places to explore if they don’t want to go there).
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
I’m going to throw it into my next campaign, you know, as an option (players can go in and do as many or as few rooms as they want; they’ll have plenty of other places to explore if they don’t want to go there).
What kind or style of campaign do you see it fitting into?
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Re: Is Tegel Manor 1977 JG over-rated? « Reply #3 on Aug 22, 2011, 11:22pm »
It's really just a big-ol'dungeon it shoudl fit into lot's of campaigns. I will admit I've always been disappointed the manor itself is all one level, it's a castle...where's the second floor?
It is big, not like something I'd necessarily draw-up myself (a plus) and I do like the room names on the map over numbers alone.
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Re: Is Tegel Manor 1977 JG over-rated? « Reply #4 on Aug 23, 2011, 12:17am »
I really like the original map of Tegel Manor, which has lots of insights into using color and notations on the map to better present referee information. I used it in my White Sandbox campaign as the home of a lich in Limbo; it worked well because the players were just there to sell him something, and when things went wrong they were totally freaked out by all the weirdness. I think it would fit well into the style of campaign that also includes Vornheim and Under Xylaren's Tower.
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: Is Tegel Manor 1977 JG over-rated? « Reply #5 on Aug 23, 2011, 5:41am »
I don't know what "over rated" means in this case. Tegel Manor was one of the first OD&D adventures ever made, and like many done then they were original since there wasn't much to copy from. At the time, only Wee Warriors and Judges Guild were making product. (If I recall my timeline correctly, TM was before the TSR monochromes.)
I got mine with my JG subscription in the 1970's and we played it. My players thought it was fun but we didn't have much to compare it to. I guess I can see how folks 35 years later would look at it and say "so that's it?" but most of the early JG products were similar in design and in quality. At the time it was considered to be a pretty decent product. I don't know that many folks who ever played Tegel Manor in the day, and not that many who have played it even today, so I'm not sure if it's even "rated" by many.
Oh, and Tavis I have a copy of that map and it's really nice.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
I used it in my White Sandbox campaign as the home of a lich in Limbo; it worked well because the players were just there to sell him something, and when things went wrong they were totally freaked out by all the weirdness.
I don't know what "over rated" means in this case.
Over-rated means doesn't deserve the company it keeps with the top class JG stuff. You yourself rated as one of your favourite five JG products on this thread:
In that thread we also see Scott Driver [Huge Ruined Pile] and Gabor Lux rate it as a favourite. I think T Foster [barfly at K&KA] rates it highly too.
As I said in the OP I don't see why it is as well regarded as the other classic early JG material.
crusssdaddy Level 5 Thaumaturgist member is offline
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Re: Is Tegel Manor 1977 JG over-rated? « Reply #7 on Aug 23, 2011, 9:26am »
I think that the 'haunted house' is a powerful & appealing myth for young fantasy enthusiasts and this might have been the first product that effectively introduced those themes into D&D -- the first chance to game in a setting that was intuitively familiar from campfire stories, Hanna Barbara cartoons, or even just having a rundown house filled with shut-ins at the end of your block.
TM was before my gaming born on date, but I fondly recall the house in Saltmarsh for that reason -- my group had been squirreling around plenty of dungeons and dark forests, but this was like "Oh cool, a haunted house!" and it still feels cool, even if in practice it played almost identically to a dungeon.
I read TM for the first time less than a year ago, haven't played it. I like the portraits, but the rest was just sort of golf-clap inducing. Too wacky & arbitrary for me, but I can understand the lasting appeal it has to players who viewed it fresh.
What kind or style of campaign do you see it fitting into?
I had been thinking of plopping it onto the Verbosh map originally, but now I’m thinking of using something more similar to the Vanth map. CSIO would be the main city in the campaign, a homebrew megadungeon (in the vein of CotMA) would be the main dungeon, but I also have in mind the concept of “The Four Castles” sprinkled about the land:
1. Tegel Manor 2. Citadel of Fire 3. Fortress Badabaskor 4. Dark Tower
IMO Tegel Manor has a lot of room for expansion. I’m thinking of incorporating a lot of material from X2 Castle Amber, since they are thematically very similar.
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
I think that Tegel Manor's original setting was Middle-earth.
Heh, Middle-earth was Bledsaw's campaign world for a while wasn't it, well maybe he placed it far East of Mordor in lands Tolkien intentionally left underdeveloped "for Dungeons & Dragons Dungeonmasters to bring to life as they please."
[quote author=kent board=judgesguild thread=6246 post=79904 time=1314071949]I also have in mind the concept of “The Four Castles” sprinkled about the land:
1. Tegel Manor 2. Citadel of Fire 3. Fortress Badabaskor 4. Dark Tower
Interesting. I just noticed by the way in the article for advice on creating Dungeons in Best of Dragon vol 1 that the author uses 'Castle' and 'Dungeon' almost synonymously which is another revealing glimpse at OD&D as distinct from AD&D.
I think that the 'haunted house' is a powerful & appealing myth for young fantasy enthusiasts and this might have been the first product that effectively introduced those themes into D&D.
This makes a lot of sense. Emphasising the Hauntedness of the Manor rather than looking at it as an exemplary gonzo dungeon goes some way to drawing attention to its virtues.
Still one can only wonder what the players are supposed to do with an endless sequence of tableaux:
B6 15'x20'x20' H Two dead Gnomes hanging from ceiling in cocoons. Door opens and slams shut every 3 t.
Interesting. I just noticed by the way in the article for advice on creating Dungeons in Best of Dragon vol 1 that the author uses 'Castle' and 'Dungeon' almost synonymously which is another revealing glimpse at OD&D as distinct from AD&D.
I hear that in translating D&D into French, "Dungeon" was transliterated into "Donjon" thus cementing the association with castles, with the result that the stereotypical French enclosed venue for exploration gets more deadly as it goes up, not down. Sfar and Trondheim's Donjon is a hugely enjoyable take on this concept.
one can only wonder what the players are supposed to do with an endless sequence of tableaux
In my experience, the players begin to feel extremely unsettled. Whether they are supposed to or not I can't say! I think that these scenes are like the endless weird-shaped corridors, far-running staircases, and empty rooms in the Blackmoor Dungeons of similar vintage: they facilitate a game of exploration, in which routine low-stakes challenges (mapping an oddly shaped room, parsing a weird tableau) build tension for an unexpected life-or-death encounter. This would predict that, as with Blackmoor, most of the things you actually might fight in Tegel Manor are seriously deadly; I don't have it at hand to confirm whether this is so.
Re: Is Tegel Manor 1977 JG over-rated? « Reply #12 on Aug 23, 2011, 2:55pm »
I vaguely remember playing in the manor when it was new. We were kids, without high expectations that everything would make sense. The magical portraits and odd encounters kept us entertained, even if some wandering spectres did maul our party.
I'm currently running a game in Tegel, this time with a group of adults. Since one of my childhood friends ended up with our old copy of Tegel, my primary source has been a PDF of the revised 1989 version, released by GameScience. I have a few photocopied pages of the original as well, and also use them as references.
Tegel can be a great adventure, but it's just a skeleton, like many other adventures of its time. It demands that the GM clothe it with detail and breathe life into it. If he's inspired by the setting, then it forms an excellent framework. If not, its not so impressive.
So far, my current group seems to be having a blast!
Over-rated means doesn't deserve the company it keeps with the top class JG stuff. You yourself rated as one of your favourite five JG products on this thread:
Heh. I totally forgot that I made that list. Who can remember all the way back to 2007?
I liked Tegel Manor and still like it, but have no idea what I was thinking when I put that list together. No way it beats First Fantasy Campaign, which is one of may all-time favorite gaming products of any edition, and Caverns of Thracia would be up there somewhere high as well. TM is a good priduct, but in retrospect probably not "top five" quallity.
I wish you'd started off with that link. Then I would have had a better frame of reference and wouldn't have embarrassed myself.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
kenmeister Level 5 Thaumaturgist member is offline
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Re: Is Tegel Manor 1977 JG over-rated? « Reply #14 on Aug 23, 2011, 7:42pm »
I was disappointed when I finally read the original version. Get the Gamescience version.
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