Magic Books in Holmes « Thread Started on May 12, 2012, 11:43am »
Let's review how spell books are handled in Holmes Basic. First, note they are never referred to as "spell books" per se - instead they are called "magic books":
"The magic-user acquires books containing the spells, the study of which allows him to memorize a spell for use ... More important, as the spell is recited it fades from the spell-caster's mind and he can not use it again! He must go back to his study and re-learn the spell. This takes at least 1 day. Magic-users can not bring their magic books into the dungeon with them. Always assume that more than 1 day has passed between expeditions, so that a magic-user who leaves the dungeon and goes home may start a new game with all his spells ready, but the appropriate time lag must be carefully noted" (pg 13).
From this we also learn: -M-Us can't bring their spell books into the dungeon -It takes an entire day to re-learn spells (i.e., not just after a night's sleep) -The use of the plural "books" is because M-Us have one book for each level of spells. The lists of spells are called "Book of First Level Spells", "Book of Second Level Spells" etc. This is from OD&D, Vol 1, which states: "Characters who employ spells are assumed to acquire books containing the spells they can use, one book for each level" (pg 34)
The 4th level M-U in the Sample Dungeon has "two giant volumes of his magic spells" (pg 45) - presumably one for 1st and one for 2nd level spells. The size explains why they can't be carried in the dungeon. I'm not sure where Holmes picked up this rule. In the OD&D FAQ in Strategic Review #2 (Summer 1975), Gygax states that a M-U "can use a given spell but once during any given day, even if he is carrying his books with him", which indicates he let M-Us bring their books with them. OD&D also provides costs for replacing spell books.
Holmes provide generous scroll rules to compensate for the inability to memorize spells in the dungeon: a scroll can be made of any spell the M-U "knows" (has in his book) at a cost of 100 gp and 1 week per spell level (i.e., 2nd level spell = 200 gp + 1 week). It's unclear if multiple scrolls can be made during the required time period. Understanding a scroll normally requires Read Magic, so scroll creation could be limited to M-Us that know this spell, though perhaps this isn't meant to apply to a magic-user's own scrolls.
The spell books are also mentioned under the rules for spell research and for learning spells. Successfully researched spells are written in the book. A new M-U must successfully copy spells from the "Book of First Level Spells" into the personal spell book. All of the standard 1st level spells are available to be learned by new M-Us, but chance of learning and number learned is dependent on INT.
In Dragon #52, Holmes reviewed the new Moldvay Basic Set and wrote: "Magic and spells: the new rules specify that if an adventure lasts longer than a day, the Magic-User can get his or her spells back through a period of rest and concentration. I'm glad to see this securely placed in the rules. All of us who act as Dungeon Masters have had to allow this on longer adventures. Actually the "spell book" is often a needless complication and can be dispensed with. Of course, a particular DM can make spell books a vital part of the game - suppose evil Magic-Users hired a high level Thief to steal the player characters' books?"
To solve this problem, a Holmes DM could simply allow for re-memorization from scrolls. These could be bundled to create a dungeon-ready magic book (dungeon book). In B2, a blank vellum book costs 20 gp (at the Bank in the Keep). Adding a known spell to the dungeon book requires the same cost/time as constructing a scroll. In a pinch a spell can be cast directly from the book as a scroll, but it then disappears and the magic-user must once again return home to his magic books to learn the spell. Furthermore, due to the cost and time for enchantment, the scroll or dungeon book acts an a mnemonic enhancer and allows memorization after a night's sleep rather than requiring a full day of study.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Re: Magic Books in Holmes « Reply #1 on May 12, 2012, 12:11pm »
Actually the "spell book" is often a needless complication and can be dispensed with. This little nugget from Holmes I heartily endorse! It seems to me that the "spell book" is at heart more what the "cool kids" today call "fluff" than "crunch", or at least was in its original intention. After all, in dungeon exploration, the basic idea is that you take what you can with you, then return and, about a week later, you head back in. If for some reason you choose to camp out in the dungeon, you do so at a risk, especially that certain supplies, notably including the MU's spells, will not be able to be refreshed. This get a little more complicated in wilderness adventures. Still, you find in the G-series modules a note that the PCs are presumed to have found a safe spot where they can retreat between forays, and that the MU can thus safely keep his books there.
The problem is that certain reasonably expected eventualities, like a caravan led by the PCs being assaulted by a superior force, destroyed by a monster, whatever, will leave the MU unable to renew his spells. You could make an adventure out of this now and again, I suppose, but too often and it becomes annoying, and otherwise you need arbitrary "plot protection" for the books' safety.
The trick, then, is how to maintain the notion of resource management and logistics that underpins the OD&D magic system while not making what functions more as an idea (i.e. that the MU can't just work magic at will because he depends on his magic tomes) serve as a "needless complication" in, e.g. extended or wilderness adventuring.
Re: Magic Books in Holmes « Reply #4 on May 13, 2012, 8:48am »
The "Book of Spells" in the OD&D rules was not completely fluff, since there's a cost listed for replacement. Though I'm sure this was rarely used in play.
The trick, then, is how to maintain the notion of resource management and logistics that underpins the OD&D magic system while not making what functions more as an idea (i.e. that the MU can't just work magic at will because he depends on his magic tomes) serve as a "needless complication" in, e.g. extended or wilderness adventuring.
That's why I like the idea of using scrolls as an add-on for re-memorization in Holmes. A new 1st level M-U won't be able to re-memorize if he can't afford a scroll. Once he gets 100 gp, he can make a single scroll of his favored spell. He can then bring this to the dungeon, and re-memorize this single spell if a safe resting place is found. Or he can use his scroll as needed, but won't be able to re-memorize after that until he returns home. As he gets more money, he can carry more scrolls and have more versatility in memorization while traveling. The "scroll spell book" becomes part of resource management - there will always be the decision of whether to use that last scroll or not in combat.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Re: Magic Books in Holmes « Reply #5 on May 13, 2012, 9:13am »
Here's an example of how this would work. The 1st level M-U, Malchor, has learned and copied six spells into his book of first level spells. He rolled 120 gp for starting money, and purchased about 100 gp worth of equipment (pg 9), leaving him with 20 gp - not enough to make a scroll. His party explores the tunnels under the ruined tower of Zenopus. The fighter Bruno bashes through a door and fights a big goblin while Malchor puts the rest of the goblins to sleep using his single memorized spell. The party finds 500 sp and 2000 cp (90 gp per Holmes) and returns to the surface. They decide he should invest in a scroll, so he prepares a scroll of sleep using the treasure and his personal funds (100 gp + 1 week). The party re-enters the dungeon and has an encounter with a wandering group of large spiders; Malchor puts four of the six to sleep. One spider is felled with arrows; Bruno is poisoned by the other before it is defeated by Mogo the Mighty and Priestess Clarissa. They try to leave the dungeon but cannot get back through the locked doors in a room with a large statue. While looking for a safe room to spend the night, they encounter a group of pirates in a sea cave. Does Malchor use his scroll spell of sleep on them, or save it for re-memorization?
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
The "Book of Spells" in the OD&D rules was not completely fluff, since there's a cost listed for replacement. Though I'm sure this was rarely used in play.
That's why I like the idea of using scrolls as an add-on for re-memorization in Holmes. A new 1st level M-U won't be able to re-memorize if he can't afford a scroll. Once he gets 100 gp, he can make a single scroll of his favored spell. He can then bring this to the dungeon, and re-memorize this single spell if a safe resting place is found. Or he can use his scroll as needed, but won't be able to re-memorize after that until he returns home. As he gets more money, he can carry more scrolls and have more versatility in memorization while traveling. The "scroll spell book" becomes part of resource management - there will always be the decision of whether to use that last scroll or not in combat.
This, then, would seem to be a Holmesian version of AD&D's travelling spellbook, though a magic-user could not opt to cast a spell from the travelling spellbook as a scroll.
Re: Magic Books in Holmes « Reply #7 on May 29, 2012, 10:14am »
Zenopus: I want to see if I'm following the logic correctly here; In your example if Malchor were to use the scroll to memorize Sleep; this would take an entire day; but the scroll would still have the Spell on it; correct?
So; in essence; the "scroll-book" a MU would put together would be very much like the Travelling Book from AD&D 1st Edition's Unearthed Arcana and 2nd Edition AD&D's DMG; with the differences being that it would take an entire day to memorize spells vice an 8-12 hour 'night'; and that spells could always be cast directly from the pages; though at the cost of having them erased permanently (a la a Scroll).
Zenopus: I want to see if I'm following the logic correctly here; In your example if Malchor were to use the scroll to memorize Sleep; this would take an entire day; but the scroll would still have the Spell on it; correct?
Whether it takes the entire day or is shorter (as I suggested at the end of my first post) is up to the DM. Since it costs money and time to make each scroll I don't see a problem with allowing a shorter memorization time. The scroll would keep the spell if used for memorization rather than casting.
Quote:
So; in essence; the "scroll-book" a MU would put together would be very much like the Travelling Book from AD&D 1st Edition's Unearthed Arcana and 2nd Edition AD&D's DMG; with the differences being that it would take an entire day to memorize spells vice an 8-12 hour 'night'; and that spells could always be cast directly from the pages; though at the cost of having them erased permanently (a la a Scroll).
Am I following this correctly?
Yes, exactly. I had the traveling spell book in mind when I wrote the posts above, though I deliberately avoided using that terminology. Since Holmes makes scrolls available to all levels, why not have these double as a traveling spell book for this ruleset?
I later went back & looked at the UA rules. The cost for adding spells to the traveling spell book in UA is actually the same cost as Holmes scrolls: 100 gp per spell level. And the spells can also be cast straight out of the spell book (though with a small % chance of erasing other spells or the entire book). So the scroll spell book for Holmes I proposed is fairly similar to the UA traveling spell book.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 521 Location: The Maze of Peril Karma: 27
Re: Magic Books in Holmes « Reply #9 on Sept 24, 2012, 10:02am »
I wonder how higher levels of play would work out if the RAW are are applied? High-level scrolls quickly become impractical unless the party is willing to take a year out between adventures while the M-U replenishes his stock. On the other hand, a Necromancer (10th level) can go in loaded with 16 spells plus a few scrolls plus whatever magic items he has acquired by then, so perhaps he can be expected to last until he gets back home to his weighty tomes.
On a tangent, I see scrolls in Holmes as a sort of spell trigger rather than the spell itself, to account for the fact that you can fit the essential bits of two score or three 6' x 3' magic book pages onto one rolled up sheet of A4 vellum. That would mean some serious illumination work, putting the Book of Kells to shame.
As you may expect, I am weighing the pros and cons of allowing memorising from scrolls in Blueholme. At present I am leaning towards leaving things as they are for the 1st-3rd Prentice Edition, with maybe an optional rule in the 1st-14th Compleat Edition.
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