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Original D&D Discussion :: Dungeons & Dragons (1971-1978) :: Holmes Basic D&D (1978) :: Elves in Holmes (again)

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waysoftheearth
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Re: Elves in Holmes (again)
« Reply #15 on Apr 5, 2012, 11:18pm »

Dual-classed demi-humans are described in Greyhawk (p5-6) as dividing experience equally between their classes -- even when no further progress is possible in one or more classes:

Quote:

Dwarves can work simultaneously as fighters and thieves ... and earned experience is always divided evenly between fighting and thievery even when the dwarf can no longer progress in the fighter class.

Quote:

Elven thieves work in all three categories at once (fighter, magic-user, and thief) ... experience is always distributed proportionately in the three categories even when the elf can no longer gain additional levels in a given category.

Quote:

Half-elves are able to progress simultaneously in both the fighter and magic-user classes and may use both weaponry and spells and otherwise act as elves do.

Greyhawk was printed 1975. Holmes was printed 1977 so was likely influenced by what preceded it in Greyhawk (and what was probably being played at the time).

The simplification introduced in by Holmes was to ignore the secondary XP charts, and use only the one (fighter) XP chart. It's an elegant change.

FWIW (a bit off topic) -- I believe that the only change to dual-classed demi-humans between Greyhawk and the 3LBBs was to distribute XP equally between the classes, rather than allowing the player to choose which single class to allocate XP to. But we have debated that one vigorously elsewhere

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Re: Elves in Holmes (again)
« Reply #16 on Apr 14, 2012, 1:43pm »

Expanded on the idea a bit on my blog just for fun http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2012/04/holmes-elf-varient.html

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Re: Elves in Holmes (again)
« Reply #17 on Apr 14, 2012, 4:09pm »

In my home campaign, which is heavily influenced by the Holmes rulebook, I treat all elves are multi-classed (to use the AD&D term) fighter/magic-users. All XP is split in half and applied to the two classes equally, though one or the other might a bonus for a high prime requisite. New hit dice come from whatever class the character achieves a new level in first, which, in practical terms, means rolling 1d8 for levels 1 to 4 and rolling 1d4 for levels 5 to 8. (Of course, I also make players re-roll hit points every time they gain a level, with increases occurring only if they roll higher than their current total.) I've toyed with the idea of rolling 1d6 for hit points whenever a new level is gained for the first time, in order to make sense of Holmes's statement, but I haven't tried it yet.

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James Maliszewski,
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Re: Elves in Holmes (again)
« Reply #18 on Apr 16, 2012, 9:05pm »

Interesting ideas, though I like the simplicity of having the elf split his XP but use only the fighter table, leveling up at the same time in each class. No mess.

A close reading of Holmes suggests elves can't adjust their stats like dwarves and halflings (IIRC, the Blood of Prokopius blog pointed this out) since they are not mentioned in that section. This could also be interpreted as elves having no prime requisite, and thus no chance of earning bonus points.

These rules for elves could be generalized for simplified multiclassing.

Since Holmes doesn't mention demihuman level limits but does mention high levels (14th, 15th), and the Warlock supplement dispenses with level limits for demihumans, I'd be tempted to have no limits for elves etc in a Holmes expansion.

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Re: Elves in Holmes (again)
« Reply #19 on Apr 16, 2012, 9:34pm »

Apr 16, 2012, 9:05pm, Zenopus wrote:

These rules for elves could be generalized for simplified multiclassing.

I am intrigued by this idea. What did you have in mind?

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Re: Elves in Holmes (again)
« Reply #20 on Apr 16, 2012, 9:54pm »

Something like:

(1) All multiclass characters split XP evenly between classes; no prime requisites at all
(2) Apply the halved XP to the Fighter table
(3) Level up in each class at the same time; F/MU, F/T use d6; F/C d6+1

Haven't thought it through for the other multiclass combinations; perhaps use the table with the highest XP requirements.

« Last Edit: Apr 16, 2012, 9:55pm by Zenopus »

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Re: Elves in Holmes (again)
« Reply #21 on Apr 16, 2012, 10:27pm »

I take it that you're presuming no level limits, as in Warlock? Much as I like your solution, especially since it does make sense of what we actually see in Holmes's text, I'm not sure it works if you assume level limits.

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Re: Elves in Holmes (again)
« Reply #22 on Apr 18, 2012, 12:04am »

Hmm, with the 4/8 level limits, perhaps I'd keep splitting the XP past 4th level, keep using the fighter table for experience, keep the d6 hit points per level (or switch to d4), and give them the new spells as the level. Just don't let them improve on the fighter attack/save table. Fighters require more XP than MU at levels 7 and 8, so it would take them much longer to reach the top levels.

So the actual elf would be something like
F1/MU1 0 XP
F2/MU2 4000 XP
F3/MU3 8000 XP
F4/MU4 16000 XP
F4/MU5 32000 XP
F4/MU6 64000 XP
F4/MU7 128000 XP
F4/MU8 240000 XP

Just looked at B/X, and that's almost exactly what the elf table looks like. I just recreated the wheel. 8-)

« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2012, 12:04am by Zenopus »

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Re: Elves in Holmes (again)
« Reply #23 on Apr 18, 2012, 7:09am »

Apr 18, 2012, 12:04am, Zenopus wrote:

I just recreated the wheel. 8-)

I often wondered if Moldvay had done something along these lines, but was too lazy to look into it. Thanks for confirming my intuition.

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Re: Elves in Holmes (again)
« Reply #24 on Apr 18, 2012, 12:11pm »

Apr 18, 2012, 12:04am, Zenopus wrote:

So the actual elf would be something like
F1/MU1 0 XP
F2/MU2 4000 XP
F3/MU3 8000 XP
F4/MU4 16000 XP
F4/MU5 32000 XP
F4/MU6 64000 XP
F4/MU7 128000 XP
F4/MU8 240000 XP

Just looked at B/X, and that's almost exactly what the elf table looks like. I just recreated the wheel. 8-)

Dang it, that's exactly what I put on my blog last week. http://boggswood.blogspot.com/

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