How about rounding light weapon damage down instead? You could do this with a special d6 that was marked 0,1,1,2,2,3.
I think that's brilliant!
Based on using your idea, I'd lower the DEX requirement for 2 attacks to 13 or higher.
For heavy, I'm getting average damage per round of 1.23 hp, worse than medium, per round, but they do have better chances of big damage (7 or more points over two rounds).
Also... if you adapt one of waysoftheearth's ideas, and when rolling the 2d6 for heavy weapon damage, you count 1's as 6's on one of the dice, then I'm getting 1.37 for average damage per round, and still of course the advantage of better chances for bigger hits, and disadvantage of only attacking every other round.
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Re: Another take on variable weapon damage « Reply #16 on Sept 30, 2011, 5:10am »
I love this stuff; can't help myself.
Here are some damage distributions for 1st-3rd level fighting-Men making one attack per round versus AC 5:
Method I Light weapons : lower of 2d6 damage Medium weapons: 1d6 damage Heavy weapons : higher of 2d6 damage ..........W.e.a.p.o.n..T.y.p.e Damage....Light..Medium..Heavy ======....=====..======..===== .0.hp.......70%....70%....70%. .1.hp........9%.....5%.....1%. .2.hp........8%.....5%.....2%. .3.hp........6%.....5%.....4%. .4.hp........4%.....5%.....6%. .5.hp........2%.....5%.....8%. .6.hp........1%.....5%.....9%. ======....=====..======..===== hp/round...0*75....1*05...1*35
Method II Light weapons : 1d6 damage (6 counts as 1). Medium weapons: 1d6 damage Heavy weapons : 1d6 damage (1 counts as 6). ..........W.e.a.p.o.n..T.y.p.e Damage....Light..Medium..Heavy ======....=====..======..===== .0.hp.......70%....70%....70%. .1.hp.......10%.....5%.....0%. .2.hp........5%.....5%.....5%. .3.hp........5%.....5%.....5%. .4.hp........5%.....5%.....5%. .5.hp........5%.....5%.....5%. .6.hp........0%.....5%....10%. ======....=====..======..===== hp/round....0*8....1*05....1*3
Method III Light weapons : -1 to hit; 1d6 damage (6 counts as 1). Medium weapons: 1d6 damage Heavy weapons : +1 to hit; 1d6 damage (1 counts as 6). ..........W.e.a.p.o.n..T.y.p.e Damage....Light..Medium..Heavy ======....=====..======..===== .0.hp.......75%....70%....65%. .1.hp........8%.....5%.....0%. .2.hp........4%.....5%.....6%. .3.hp........4%.....5%.....6%. .4.hp........4%.....5%.....6%. .5.hp........4%.....5%.....6%. .6.hp........0%.....5%....12% ======....=====..======..===== hp/round...0*64... 1*05...1*56
Method IV Light weapons : -1 to hit; lower of 2d6 damage Medium weapons: 1d6 damage Heavy weapons : +1 to hit; higher of 2d6 damage ..........W.e.a.p.o.n..T.y.p.e Damage....Light..Medium..Heavy ======....=====..======..===== .0.hp.......75%....70%....65%. .1.hp........8%.....5%.....1%. .2.hp........6%.....5%.....3%. .3.hp........5%.....5%.....5%. .4.hp........4%.....5%.....7%. .5.hp........2%.....5%.....9%. .6.hp........1%.....5%....11%. ======....=====..======..===== hp/round...0*67....1*05...1*61
Method V Light weapons : +1 to hit; lower of 2d6 damage Medium weapons: 1d6 damage Heavy weapons : -1 to hit; higher of 2d6 damage ..........W.e.a.p.o.n..T.y.p.e Damage....Light..Medium..Heavy ======....=====..======..===== .0.hp.......65%....70%....75%. .1.hp.......11%.....5%.....1%. .2.hp........9%.....5%.....2%. .3.hp........7%.....5%.....4%. .4.hp........5%.....5%.....5%. .5.hp........3%.....5%.....6%. .6.hp........1%.....5%.....8%. ======....=====..======..===== hp/round....0*91...1*05...1*15
There are countless other combinations, allowing you to get the balance "just right" for your game
You might also consider that heavy weapons generally preclude the use a shield (a significant disadvantage). Light weapons might have an initiative advantage in cramped conditions, while heavy weapons will generally have more reach and so have the first opportunity in the opening round. Heavy weapons also cost more coin and reduce the amount of loot you can carry, so you might "expect" them to be more effective.
Of course not all targets are AC 5 either! So much to ponder...
Joined: Sept 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 1,214 Location: Melbourne, Australia Karma: 195
Re: Another take on variable weapon damage « Reply #17 on Sept 30, 2011, 6:20am »
Like I said, I can't help myself
Here's the picture for a 1st to 3rd level fighting-Man attacking once per round, with attacks distributed evenly across opponents of AC9, AC7, AC5 and AC3, representing unarmoured, leather, mail and plate armoured enemy, respectively.
This model presupposes that heavy weapon are better at penetrating heavy armour, but worse at hitting agile, unarmoured targets. Light weapons are quick and best suited to jabbing unarmoured targets, but ineffective at penetrating heavy armour.
Method VI Light weapons : +2/0/-1/-2 vs AC 9/7/5/3; lower of 2d6 damage Medium weapons: no attack adjustments; 1d6 damage Heavy weapons : -2/-1/0/+1 vs AC 9/7/5/3; higher of 2d6 damage ..........W.E.A.P.O.N..T.Y.P.E..V.E.R.S.U.S..A.C ..........L_i_g_h_t_....M_e_d_i_u_m...H_e_a_v_y_ Damage....9..7..5..3....9..7..5..3....9..7..5..3 ======....==========....==========....========== .0.hp....40.60.75.90...50.60.70.80...60.65.70.75 .1.hp....19.12..8..3....9..7..5..3....1..1..1..1 .2.hp....15.10..6..3....9..7..5..3....3..3..2..2 .3.hp....11..8..5..2....9..7..5..3....6..5..4..4 .4.hp.....8..6..4..1....9..7..5..3....8..7..6..5 .5.hp.....5..3..2..1....9..7..5..3...10..9..8..6 .6.hp.....2..1..1.<1....9..7..5..3...12.11..9..8 ======....==========....==========....========== hp/round.....0*87..........1*26..........1*47...
The figures in each column are the percentage chances of an outcome for any single attack versus an AC.
Re: Another take on variable weapon damage « Reply #18 on Oct 1, 2011, 7:41am »
Awesome posts, waysoftheearth, thanks!
Laying it out for different ACs (Method VI) really gives the complete picture. Very nice.
I like Methods I and VI the best. (I have some thoughts about fun factor and psychology, but really off-topic from this thread, so I think I'll start another thread).
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Re: Another take on variable weapon damage « Reply #19 on Oct 10, 2011, 10:16pm »
I have always had different ideas about how to handle the "dual weapons" vs "two handed weapons" thing, especially as compared to the 1-handed weapon and shield user who gets a distinct advantage (AC)* if all weapons are usable once per round and deal 1d6 damage.
In the past I have liked the idea of giving dual weapon users a +1 to attack, and the two-handed weapon users a +1 to damage (balances nicely with the +1 to AC for shield users.)
Currently, I am trying an idea where you can only use two weapons effectively if you have a 15 DEX or better, and it allows you to roll two d6 for damage, taking the best result. For two-handed weapons, you need STR 15 or better and on a damage roll of natural 6, you can roll another d6 and add it. (Magical effects and the like would be added on top of the base damage rolls here.)
I did not figure out the exact odds, etc. mathematically, but it seems to me the "two weapons=two dice" makes intuitive sense, and will result in overall better damage per round, while the "exploding" d6 on two-handed weapons will give a larger amount of damage per hit, but only once in a while. I'm going to see how it works out...
*I know strictly speaking shields in OD&D do not grant a direct AC bonus, but a penalty to attackers. We've never played the game that way, however.
I know strictly speaking shields in OD&D do not grant a direct AC bonus, but a penalty to attackers. We've never played the game that way, however.
A small point of order, if I may:
Shields improve armor class by +1 in OD&D, just like in later editions of the game. For reference, check out Attack Matrix I: Men Attacking on page 19 of Volume I: Men & Magic.
You may be thinking of magical shields and armors, which subtract their bonuses (only) from the attacker's "to hit" rolls.
Re: Another take on variable weapon damage « Reply #21 on Mar 26, 2012, 7:10pm »
Returning to this excellent thread today...
Holmes has two-handed weapons striking every other round. Holmes also has a parry rule. While the book says that the defender gives up his next hit, "using that part of the round for the parry", since the two-handed weapon wielder is not attacking that round you could rule that he can still parry. This would also mitigate the lack of shield, giving the two-headed weapon wielder the equivalent of a -2 for AC every other round. You could combine this with double-damage (2d6) and the two-handed weapon would deal the same average damage per round (1.75/round for a Holmes Normal Man vs AC9) as a single-handed weapon.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Re: Another take on variable weapon damage « Reply #22 on Mar 27, 2012, 10:44pm »
Idea: for daggers, rather than having them do 1d3 per hit, have them do 1d3 for 1 hit, and 1d6 for 2 hits. Roll both hits simultaneously (i.e., roll two d20s at the same time), and then roll a d6 for either 1d3 or 1d6.
This brings the average damage per round of the daggers closer to swords.
A Holmes Normal Man vs AC9 has a 50% chance of hitting. With a 1d6 sword he'll do an average of 1.75 points of damage/round. With a 2d6 two-handed sword he'll do the same. But with with two daggers attacks of 1d3, the average damage per round is 2 points/round. This is due to rounding as I mentioned earlier in this thread.
However, if you use the dagger idea above, the average damage/round for daggers will be 1.875 (the change is because only one is being halved and rounded). This still gives an advantage to daggers, but the difference is less. Also, daggers will hit more often but do less damage, so their slight advantage only surfaces over long periods of time.
That is, over 4 rounds a sword will hit twice for average 3.5 points of damage, whereas a dagger will hit 3 times for an average of 2, 2, or 3.5 points of damage. So, you'll have to last longer to get that slight advantage from the dagger (on average, for every 10 rounds the dagger will do ~19 points of damage vs ~18 for the sword). This is the same effect that 3d6 described above.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
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Re: Another take on variable weapon damage « Reply #24 on Mar 30, 2012, 5:51pm »
I love the simplicity of your ideas in the first post, 3d6.
It would work well in OD&D and Whitebox / S&W /Epee et Sorc. - although Heavy Weapons will be pretty deadly against first levellers. At least you get a chance to run whilst they're ready the weapon for the next round. - By contrast 1d3 would provide more incentive for weaker characters and monsters to engage with each other.
Those are some really neat ideas, Zenopus. I especially like the parry/2H thing. I'm going to have to think some more about these over the weekend.
Thanks, 3d6. Here's a table compiling my thoughts from the previous posts, made with the goal of reconciling 1d6 damage/weapon/round with number of blows per round:
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Re: Another take on variable weapon damage « Reply #26 on Apr 3, 2012, 8:59pm »
Slightly revised version. It takes 1 round to draw a new weapon, so thrown weapons might be best represented as 1 per 2 rounds (although if the weapon is in the other hand or sheathed at the waist it could be thrown the next round).
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
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At least you get a chance to run whilst they're ready the weapon for the next round. - By contrast 1d3 would provide more incentive for weaker characters and monsters to engage with each other.![[image]](http://inkedadventures.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/inkedadventures_com___banner.gif "[image]")
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