Another take on variable weapon damage « Thread Started on Sept 24, 2011, 8:24pm »
Hi all "Holmesians." Newbie poster here. (I posted a brief hello over in the intro thread).
Excellent forum, this Holmes section is great.
I'm back into gaming after many years, prep-ing a campaign which will use a mashup of Holmes/Red book/House and a very few rules from AD&D. (I'm not a big fan of AD&D, but that's a topic for another post!).
For your perusal, if interested, this is my very personal take on modifying/extending the Holmes "all do 1d6" rule, and the rules on pp. 20 and 21, under "Combat Rounds, Time and Movement in Melee," and "The Parry."
LIGHT WEAPONS All light weapons do 1d3 damage. When a light weapon is wielded by character of DEX 14 or greater, it may be used to strike twice in a round. The second strike must be directed at same target as the first. The second strike occurs at very end of the round, after all other combatants have acted.
MEDIUM WEAPONS All medium weapons do 1d6 damage.
HEAVY WEAPONS All heavy weapons do 2d6 damage. The wielder of any heavy weapon is only able to strike every other round. A character must have STR 12 or greater in order to use a heavy weapon.
THE PARRY AND WEAPON BREAKAGE A combatant may declare intent to parry (no attack is possible when parrying). Subtract 2 from opponents TH roll. If opponent rolls exactly number needed TH, then no damage is done to the parrying combatant, but the weapon has a chance of breaking. An item saving throw is allowed: 1d6 is rolled for this saving throw. In order for the weapon to survive, the roll must be less than or equal to the value indicated in the table.
TABLE: Weapon costs and saving throw levels for breakage
Cost Saving Throw* -------------- Light Weapons: Dagger(**) 3 gp 2 Dart(**) 5 sp N/A Sling(+) nil N/A -------------- Medium Weapons: Bow 40 gp 1 Hand Axe 3 gp 2 Light crossbow 16 gp 2 Mace(+) 5 gp 3 Staff(**,+,++) 2 gp 2 Spear 3 gp 2 Sword 10 gp 4 ------------- Heavy Weapons: Two-handed sword(++) 15 gp 5 Battle Axe(++) 7 gp 3 Heavy Crossbow(++) 25 gp 3
*Weapon is NOT BROKEN if roll is less than or equal to given value, weapon is broken if roll is greater. “N/A” indicates weapon is not able to be used to parry. Magic weapons may be declared unbreakable, or may receive a bonus to their saving throws (such as -1 to roll for each +1 of weapon), at the DMs discretion.
**Usable by magic users; all other weapons prohibited for magic users, and note any weapon needs to be sheathed or put down in order to cast a spell.
+Usable by clerics; all other weapons prohibited for clerics.
++Two-handed, prohibits use of shield, not usable by dwarves or halflings.
Notes. Many weapons are missing, I'm not trying to cover everything. For now, just those likely to be available to/encountered by PCs in their little corner of the world initially.
The reason that I've come up with these rules is that I like the ideas of the Holmes Parry rule, the Holmes multiple hits per round/hitting every other round for light/2-handed weapons rules, and the basic idea of "all do 1d6," but I'm modifying them to try to balance things out a bit, and not get way-out complicated. Just my opinions.
Not playtested, and these rules do have implications, but I think they'll work pretty well. Anyway, this is what I'm thinking of trying, any thoughts welcome!
"Those who swallow the camel of the entire concept, then strain at gnats of a particular monster or situation seem to be be losing much of the basis for playing. However, that sort of thing happens as one becomes familiar with the fanciful and begins to qualify the experience by comparison to reality." - EGG
Re: Another take on variable weapon damage « Reply #4 on Sept 25, 2011, 12:41am »
Welcome, 3d6! Great choice for a forum handle.
I like your system for damage; it's straightforward and easy for everyone to remember. One comment is that I've read that 2 attacks per round at 1-4 will do more average damage than one attack at 1-8 per round. See the last comment to this post. I think that 1-3/1-6/2d6 would be the same. So on average the light weapon will do more per round than the medium which will do more than the heavy. So for two handed weapons you are getting a lesser average damage per round as well as the AC disadvantage.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Re: Another take on variable weapon damage « Reply #5 on Sept 25, 2011, 10:32am »
Hi, thanks for the replies.
foxroe: definitely trying to stay "Holmes-like." It's easy to start the fiddle and get away from it, this is probably the one area where I feel a need to house it rule it so much.
Zenopus: Those are some excellent thoughts of yours. Thanks, also, for pointing me in the direction of that great post/comments to it. Great food for thought.
Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 278 Karma: 18
Re: Another take on variable weapon damage « Reply #6 on Sept 25, 2011, 11:01am »
Here's a big way to make Heavy Weapons more important in play.
If one side gains surprise over another side in an encounter the side with surprise get's to attack with heavy weapons (if in hand) during the surprise round and the 1st round of regular melee. With this method heavy weapons can deal a significant impact under the right conditions but during a sustained fight their advantage is lost.
Re: Another take on variable weapon damage « Reply #7 on Sept 25, 2011, 4:56pm »
Hi, jjarvis: thanks for the reply. That's an cool idea on heavy weapons, I like that. I'm going to think some more about it.
About the light weapon/twice per round stuff, I worked out an example. The outcome is that with 2 attacks with a light weapon, you're much more likely in a round to do some damage than with one medium weapon, but you're less likely to do a large amount of damage. (The %'s would change for different TH numbers, but I don't see this basic idea changing).
Take a 1st - 3rd lvl char attacking AC 5. Required TH is 14. (Note, for two attacks per round, each requires a separate attack roll).
Table: Damage per round comparison between 2 attacks with a light weapon (1d3 dam each), and 1 attack with medium weapon (1d6 dam)
Damage 2 Attacks (lt wpn) 1 Attack (med wpn) ------ ------------------ ------------------ 0 hp 42% 65% 1 hp 15% 6% 2 hp 17% 6% 3 hp 18% 6% 4 hp 4% 6% 5 hp 3% 6% 6 hp 1% 6%
(Values rounded, so the 2nd column adds to 101%).
So, for example, if you're using a dagger twice per round, then 18% of the time, in the long run, you'll do 3 hp dam in a round, you'll completely miss 42% of the time, you'll do 6 hp dam 1% of the time, etc. With a medium weapon, you'll miss 65% of the time, and you'll do 6 hp dam 6% of the time, etc.
So, it's a question which is better. I'd actually probably opt for the 1 medium weapon, most times, depending. Doing 6 hp dam 6 times as often as with 2 dagger attacks is looking good to me. But it could definitely be argued the other way, that the dagger is better, especially because you're much more likely to do some damage.
Thanks for motivating me to work this out. As a result, I think I'm going to change to "DEX must be greater than or equal to 15," instead of 14, in order to be able to attack twice per round. This will make it pretty rare. Just by the raw numbers, when rolling 3d6 in order for char gen, about 16% of chars have DEX 14 or greater and 9% have DEX 15 or greater. The actual numbers are slightly higher, because some who roll 13 or 14 and become thieves might elect to increase DEX to 14 or 15. I think a world where about 10% of individuals get two light weapon attacks per round is about right by me.
(btw, pretty sure the math is right, but I didn't super-check it.)
A disadvantage to light weapons is that only some of your damage is dealt when you have initiative, the rest, if any, comes at the very end of the round and you may be dead before then.
Didn't know this was going to get me so much into the numbers, but glad it did. Thanks a lot, very helpful, folks.
Re: Another take on variable weapon damage « Reply #8 on Sept 27, 2011, 5:00am »
So, I did some math on the heavy weapons. Kind of neat. Let me just give you the summary:
2 rounds of attack at 1d6 vs. 2d6 every other round, how do they compare? Using a medium weapon, you're much more likely to do some damage (58% vs 35%). The advantage to a heavy weapon is that you're much more likely to do 7 or more points damage (21% vs 7%).
Basically the medium weapon is better, but with the slower, heavy, there's a bigger chance of getting a big hit (enough to dispatch almost all 1HD creatures). I actually think that's about right, not really an advantage to heavy, but there is a reason for using them, if a player chooses. I'm going to increase the saving throw for the battle axe to 4.
So I think I'm pretty happy with "my" system, but...
Another very good system is: every weapon has a chance of doing 1d6 every round period.
Another very good system is: every weapon has a chance of doing 1d6 every round period.
Yes it's excellent! My favorite by far.
With what little I know of actual European martial arts, it actually makes sense to me (historic fighters aren't as prone to swinging their weapons about them in the same extent as their fantasy counterparts), and it's easy!
Also, everyone gets to do an attack every round (if they want to) which keeps them occupied and happy. I think that's worth a lot.
However: if you're curious, try your system! If it feels right you keep it, otherwise you tweak it or change it up. Pretty obvious advice I guess, but I feel like being enthusiastic about actual play tonight!
Another thing that I think is pretty cool with weapons in these older rules sets is the room you have to let them behave differently just by how they look. A spear is long right? So I can make a stab at the enemy over my friends shoulder! The cross hilt of my sword is kinda like a hook, so I'll try to trip the bugbear with it! Is there a hook or spike on my polearm? Etc. Some systems codify all this stuff, but in Holmes (et al.) we get to make a ruling, quick and dirty. I love that.
Another very good system is: every weapon has a chance of doing 1d6 every round period.
Isn't that exactly the "standard" D&D combat model (a.k.a. the alternate combat system)? Each round each player rolls 1d20 to determine whether or not they cause 1d6 points of damage.
If I understand correctly, I think you are looking for a non-standard damage distribution.
I suspect that a reasonable approximation of this could be achieved by;
1) Light weapons; fast, +2 to hit but deal the lesser of 2d6, 2) Medium weapons; normal to hit and deal 1d6, 3) Heavy weapons; slow, -2 to hit but deal the greater of 2d6.
Or what about...
1) Light weapons; fast, +2 to hit, 1d6 dam but 6s count as 1s. 2) Medium weapons; normal to hit, 1d6 dam, 3) Heavy weapons; slow, -2 to hit, 1d6 dam but 1s count as 6s.
If you really wanted to go to town you could also adjust attack rolls so that heavy weapons are better at penetrating armour. I.e., light weapons might be -2 versus mail and -4 versus plate, heavy weapon might be +2 versus mail and plate. Or similar.
Another thing that I think is pretty cool with weapons in these older rules sets is the room you have to let them behave differently just by how they look. A spear is long right? So I can make a stab at the enemy over my friends shoulder! The cross hilt of my sword is kinda like a hook, so I'll try to trip the bugbear with it! Is there a hook or spike on my polearm? Etc. Some systems codify all this stuff, but in Holmes (et al.) we get to make a ruling, quick and dirty. I love that.
Another very good system is: every weapon has a chance of doing 1d6 every round period.
Isn't that exactly the "standard" D&D combat model (a.k.a. the alternate combat system)? Each round each player rolls 1d20 to determine whether or not they cause 1d6 points of damage.
Yes, it absolutely is! Sorry, I should have elaborated/made myself clearer at that point. What I was thinking was that, in spite of having thought this variable damage stuff out and done some calculations, I'm starting to feel more and more like the standard 1d6 model is the best, and just stick with it.
If I understand correctly, I think you are looking for a non-standard damage distribution.
Yes, let me explain more why: I've basically always ignored (like most, I think) these statements in the Blue Book, "Light weapons, such as the dagger, allow two blows per round," and "The heavy two-handed sword, battle axe, halberd, flail, morning star and most pole arms can be used only once every other round." (Apparently making the dagger an super-weapon, and no reason at all to use a heavy weapon).
Some people say they're hold overs from Chainmail that don't fit (I have no idea if that's true), some people say, don't interpret them too literally (that may be good advice). Most I think ignore them.
Some say, weapon choice is all about role-playing reasons. That is a _good_ statement. I am ALL FOR that! However, following that "two blows per round" literally, it would take a stalwart roleplayer indeed to use other than a dagger!
I was trying to figure out some rules, as simple as possible, that would stay close in spirit to these statements in the Blue Book, but balance things out, so the dagger wouldn't be the super weapon of choice, and something to offset the heavy weapons' slow "attack rate," but at the same time trying to stay very close to "standard 1d6." For instance, I don't really want the usual 1d4 dagger, 1d8 longsword, etc. full blown variable weapon damage.
Thanks for your system, waysoftheearth! Great, I like it. Another way to go at this.
Thanks all for very interesting feedback! Greatly appreciated.
Joined: Dec 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 294 Location: Miskatonic U Karma: 9
Re: Another take on variable weapon damage « Reply #13 on Sept 28, 2011, 7:42pm »
Hey, 3d6, there's nothing wrong with how you want to handle weapon damage in your campaign; after all, it's your campaign!
A lot of us have tinkered with the rules over the years, and I think a good majority of us just end up saying, "You know what? 1d6, attack every round is good enough."
If you are looking for something different, I highly recommend two options:
1) S&W Whitebox: essentially -1 damage for light weapons, and +1 damage for 2H weapons.
2) Philotomy's OD&D musings: great, "balanced" (ugly OSR word) combat rules for 1H/shield, 2H weapons, and dual weapon use.
"Those who swallow the camel of the entire concept, then strain at gnats of a particular monster or situation seem to be be losing much of the basis for playing. However, that sort of thing happens as one becomes familiar with the fanciful and begins to qualify the experience by comparison to reality." - EGG
Damage 2 Attacks (lt wpn) 1 Attack (med wpn) ------ ------------------ ------------------ 0 hp 42% 65% 1 hp 15% 6% 2 hp 17% 6% 3 hp 18% 6% 4 hp 4% 6% 5 hp 3% 6% 6 hp 1% 6%
Great analysis. I think I've seen it expressed elsewhere as average damage per round. Based on your analysis, what would the average damage per round be over the long run? Would it be:
The advantage to the light weapon is coming from rounding up 1/2 of 1, 3, 5 on the d6 to the higher number (i.e., 1 or 2 = 1; 3 or 4 = 2; 5 or 6 = 3). How about rounding light weapon damage down instead? You could do this with a special d6 that was marked 0,1,1,2,2,3.
Using this, I get:
Damage 2 Attacks (lt wpn) 1 Attack (med wpn) ------ ------------------ ------------------ 0 hp 50.1% 65% 1 hp 16.6% 6% 2 hp 18.0% 6% 3 hp 10.9% 6% 4 hp 2.8% 6% 5 hp 1.4% 6% 6 hp 0.3% 6%
Average damage / round for the light weapon in this case is 1.053, changing it from being more effective than the medium weapon to less effective.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
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