Was AD&D Gygax's definitive take on fantasy RPGing « Thread Started on Apr 6, 2011, 6:28am »
Was the first edition of the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game Gygax's definitive take on fantasy roleplaying? Did he continue to expand many of its ideas after he parted ways with TSR. Or was AD&D a product of its time or whatever design restrictions he placed on himself when he wrote it?
Playing: Yton, A halfling troubadour in an Eberron (Savage Worlds) campaign; Hans a freelance duelist in a Runequest 2nd/3rd edition campaign; The Vociferous Bastard from Innsmouth, a scoundrel in Mushgnome's Chainmail Carcosa.
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Re: Was AD&D Gygax's definitive take on fantasy RP « Reply #2 on Apr 6, 2011, 8:18am »
Gary produced several games after leaving TSR, ending up with a set of rules-light skill-bundled rules for playing FRPGs, Lejendary Adventure (LA).
LA is a nice rules set, very simple and yet allowing the recreation of characters from favorite novels and such. You want a spell-casting thief? No problem. A wizard with a sword, chainmail, and genuine attitude? No problem.
Of course, just as there are limitations to class-based character generation (D&D)? There are also limitations to skill-based char-gen such as LA's. Overall, however, I like the approach Gygax took (though I still prefer OD&D).
To sum up: Gygax professed to be an advocate in his latter years of rule-light game systems and oft-stated online (ENWorld and DragonsFoot) that Lejendary Adventures was his definitive work. It is my personal opinion that, if pressed hard on the point in a non-public forum, he would have admitted that his D&D game would probably be his magnum opus, but that is pure supposition on my part and not based upon any direct or indirect statement by the Grand Master of Dragons himself.
Re: Was AD&D Gygax's definitive take on fantasy RP « Reply #3 on Apr 6, 2011, 9:08am »
This maybe a really difficult question to answer: Do you think AD&D would have logically evolved into Lejendary Adventure? Or was Gygax forced to switch gears after leaving TSR?
From what little I've gathered (without reading any LA book) it seems like Gygax favored abstract simplicity over comprehensive reality-simulation. I maybe wrong because I've read very little Gygax. This is just the impression I get from the AD&D PH and the descriptions of LA I've read on the interwebs.
Playing: Yton, A halfling troubadour in an Eberron (Savage Worlds) campaign; Hans a freelance duelist in a Runequest 2nd/3rd edition campaign; The Vociferous Bastard from Innsmouth, a scoundrel in Mushgnome's Chainmail Carcosa.
Joined: Nov 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 1,555 Location: Austin TX USA Karma: 152
Re: Was AD&D Gygax's definitive take on fantasy RP « Reply #4 on Apr 6, 2011, 9:42am »
Unlikely, though I feel that he would made the same progression as his game publishing history: increasing complexity followed by a big drop to a simpler rules system.
I think the gear switching had a lot to do with TSR (et al.) and the scrutiny his work fell under as a result of his departure. Any class-based FRPG would have probably gotten him sued back into the the Stone Age.
He is also on record as stating the skill-based approach is due, in part at least, to his work on a computer FRPG that never saw the light of day. But the skills approach definitely set this work apart from his body of work at TSR, even to the rather unwieldy (at times) terminology in LA to avoid using D&D jargon.
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Re: Was AD&D Gygax's definitive take on fantasy RP « Reply #5 on Apr 6, 2011, 9:49am »
My understanding is that Gary was well into his own version of 2E when he lost control of the company, so he had planned for AD&D to evolve at least some from what had already been published. TSR took his notes and made their own version.
Gary's other post-TSR RPG publications were hobbled somewhat by the fact that he wasn't allowed to make anything too close to what had been done already, so it's hard to say if his later games really reflected his long-term Master PlanTM. I do know that he was pretty enthusiastic about Castles & Crusades, which is kind of AD&D evolved, so maybe his 2E might have turned out that way.
(There are some threads on DF about this and he wrote a "Sorcerer's Scroll" editorial in Dragon that detailed his overall thoughts on a revised edition. I don't recall all of the specifics offhand.)
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
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Re: Was AD&D Gygax's definitive take on fantasy RP « Reply #6 on Apr 6, 2011, 11:01am »
That is my understanding as well. The Gygax 2nd Edition would have consolidated all the material from UA into the core rules, and some additional sub-classes would be included (such as mountebank and jester).
I often wonder what that edition of the game would have been like. No matter earnestly he was questioned about it, however, I never saw Gary reply (online) with any answer other than (paraphrased) "that material is now the IP of a different company, I've got my own material I think is pretty swell!".
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Re: Was AD&D Gygax's definitive take on fantasy RP « Reply #7 on Apr 6, 2011, 1:01pm »
Ad&d was a cobbling together of the optional rules from all the suppliments to date that Gary liked including rules from Chainmail; then tweaked as he saw fit. Surrounding all these was chapters and chapters of garys own philosophy on gaming and world building, combined with a "simulacrum" like rewriting of arneson's contribution to the game in garys own words in order to take dave's name off the cover.
It was mostly about creating an "official" d&d that could be used at tournaments so one person wouldn't show up running combat with the fantasy combat table and another with thac0 or one guy using eldritch wizardry initiative and another using chainmails mass combat etc...
It was mostly about creating an "official" d&d that could be used at tournaments so one person wouldn't show up running combat with the fantasy combat table and another with thac0 or one guy using eldritch wizardry initiative and another using chainmails mass combat etc...
This. And it's one of the most out-of-context bits of information so often abused by haters of old-school gaming, such as those who love to cite the Dragon editorial where Gygax says if you're not playing by the book, you're not playing AD&D. Taken in context he's addressing convention- and organized-style play, not home games. Taken out of context, Gygax becomes a tyrannical "my way or the highway" villain.
I've been watching that project with some degree of interest. My game of choice is OD&D, I started playing it a year after it was released, but the editor of that rules set has a degree of enthusiasm for the project that I find quite refreshing.
Re: Was AD&D Gygax's definitive take on fantasy RP « Reply #11 on Apr 6, 2011, 5:08pm »
This thread has changed the way I look at AD&D; especially in relation with oD&D. I always thought that Gygax felt that oD&D was faulty because of it's vagueness, mostly because of my misreading of the "playing by the book" quote. From the looks of it, it seems like I was mistaken and I'm quite glad of it. It is awesome to read that he didn't see 1E as a fix for a broken game, but as an attempt to bring some cohesion to a great set of rules that was released in separate supplements.
Playing: Yton, A halfling troubadour in an Eberron (Savage Worlds) campaign; Hans a freelance duelist in a Runequest 2nd/3rd edition campaign; The Vociferous Bastard from Innsmouth, a scoundrel in Mushgnome's Chainmail Carcosa.
Joined: Dec 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 294 Location: Miskatonic U Karma: 9
Re: Was AD&D Gygax's definitive take on fantasy RP « Reply #12 on Apr 6, 2011, 9:20pm »
FWIW (and from what I understand from second hand information -- and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong), Gary never stopped playing OD&D, regardless of his other projects or what happened to him professionally.
"Those who swallow the camel of the entire concept, then strain at gnats of a particular monster or situation seem to be be losing much of the basis for playing. However, that sort of thing happens as one becomes familiar with the fanciful and begins to qualify the experience by comparison to reality." - EGG
Re: Was AD&D Gygax's definitive take on fantasy RP « Reply #13 on Apr 9, 2011, 2:07pm »
From what I know Gary did keep playing OD&D. However, He did also try to get people into LA. However the mixed response to LA and it's difficulties with publishing kept several people away from the game. I tend to think that, in His later years, Gary would have preferred to be more associated with LA rather than with D&D.
I tend to think that, in His later years, Gary would have preferred to be more associated with LA rather than with D&D.
I long felt sorry for Gary on that score. Imagine being a game designer, and most of your fans pay scant notice to your current projects but prefer stuff you did decades ago. I imagine it like this:
FAN: "Geoffrey, give us a detailed account of your thoughts and design rationales when you designed room #27 in level #4 of the dungeon you published in 1982. Should the trolls get a +1 or a +2 on their attacks vs. PCs wearing red?"
ME: "Um... That was decades ago. I don't remember any of that. Just have fun with it. Besides, aren't you interested in my new Isle of the Unknown? It is a huge improvement in every way over my decades-old dungeons."
FAN: "No, I'm more interested in those trolls in room #27."
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