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Otto Harkaman
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Dungeon grid layout
« Thread Started on Aug 7, 2012, 7:55am »
I am going through the old Holmes rules now and maybe its in his dungeon section but I was wondering where do the rules (Holmes or OD&D) clarify movement and combat on the square grid layout used for most floor plans?

I am realizing now that most of my assumption about the rules are coming from playing the SSI AD&D Gold box games which implements D&D combat on a square grid.
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Re: Dungeon grid layout
« Reply #1 on Aug 7, 2012, 9:10am »
There wasn't specific square-grid rules for D&D until late 2nd Edition. AD&D 1st had some grids in the DMG, mostly to cover how many people could surround a person, based on either a square grid or a hex grid, and what flanking and behind meant.
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Otto Harkaman
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Re: Dungeon grid layout
« Reply #2 on Aug 7, 2012, 9:25am »
Thanks exedore!
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Re: Dungeon grid layout
« Reply #3 on Aug 7, 2012, 10:05am »
All that info first appeared in Player's Option Combat & Tactics.

I still use the basic framework in my ongoing 2e game. My players there wanted a tactical map. I've always disliked them personally, preferring a more DM controlled, cinematic combat.

That being said there are some interesting points I like in the Combat & Tactics book for my 2e game:

12 second combat round.
Scale of 1" = 5'
Tougher Crossbow
Both Strength and Dexterity can increase base move.
Weapon Mastery
Style Specialization
Surprise penalties for helmets
Composite Armor
Chapter 7: Weapons & Armor (great expansion of the PHB and has converted all missile weapons' ranges to 5' squares).
Carrying Capacity for Beasts (Table)

Using this book you could reverse engineer a tactical system for earlier editions.
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Otto Harkaman
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Re: Dungeon grid layout
« Reply #4 on Aug 7, 2012, 10:08am »
Thanks for the info owlorbs, I'll check it out. :)

Interesting the idea of cinematic combat vs a tactical battle layout.

I am interesting in creating tactical battle on a grid using paper minaitures but I can see where in just roleplaying it is easier to perform cinematic combat. I think this is what we mainly did when I was young. I remember using extra 6-sided dice to represent our characters marching order.

Funny now that I have a look again at the DMG with these hex or square diagrams that I had an anathema against using hexes for D&D combat. I thought dungeons had to be on square grids!

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Re: Dungeon grid layout
« Reply #5 on Aug 7, 2012, 1:09pm »
Or, if you have measuring tape, they don't have to be on grids or hexes at all.

I always thought the old Cardboard Heroes Dungeon tiles were neat since they were both simultaneously hex and square dungeons.
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Re: Dungeon grid layout
« Reply #6 on Aug 7, 2012, 2:29pm »
While AD&D didn't have grid rules it had miniature rules basically the 1" = 10 feet indoor 1" = 10 yards outdoor convention.

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Re: Dungeon grid layout
« Reply #7 on Aug 7, 2012, 3:14pm »

Aug 7, 2012, 2:29pm, robertsconley wrote:
While AD&D didn't have grid rules it had miniature rules basically the 1" = 10 feet indoor 1" = 10 yards outdoor convention.


Yes I vaguely remember that now, and I guess somewhere I started to assume one square is equal to 10 feet.

I think I was also assuming from somewhere that one character takes up one square or 10 feet when fighting. Where is that from?
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Re: Dungeon grid layout
« Reply #8 on Aug 7, 2012, 3:35pm »
OD&D states you can have 3 man-sized creatures fighting side-by-side in a ten foot corridor (Volume III: UW&WA p. 12 underlined text at the top of the page).

Your idea may have come from the zone of control idea often used in wargames, including Chainmail (p, 16 "All types of troops are considered to control the space 1 " on either side of themselves to stop infiltration."
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Re: Dungeon grid layout
« Reply #9 on Aug 7, 2012, 4:17pm »

Aug 7, 2012, 3:35pm, Cameron DuBeers wrote:
OD&D states you can have 3 man-sized creatures fighting side-by-side in a ten foot corridor (Volume III: UW&WA p. 12 underlined text at the top of the page).

Your idea may have come from the zone of control idea often used in wargames, including Chainmail (p, 16 "All types of troops are considered to control the space 1 " on either side of themselves to stop infiltration."


Thanks Cameron, much appreciated!

I just had an epiphany, I was getting my assumptions from "Snapshot" GDW's game based on Traveller's combat.
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Re: Dungeon grid layout
« Reply #10 on Aug 7, 2012, 4:36pm »
Happy to help! Have an exalt!
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Re: Dungeon grid layout
« Reply #11 on Aug 7, 2012, 4:41pm »

Aug 7, 2012, 4:17pm, Otto Harkaman wrote:

Aug 7, 2012, 3:35pm, Cameron DuBeers wrote:
OD&D states you can have 3 man-sized creatures fighting side-by-side in a ten foot corridor (Volume III: UW&WA p. 12 underlined text at the top of the page).

Your idea may have come from the zone of control idea often used in wargames, including Chainmail (p, 16 "All types of troops are considered to control the space 1 " on either side of themselves to stop infiltration."


Thanks Cameron, much appreciated!

I just had an epiphany, I was getting my assumptions from "Snapshot" GDW's game based on Traveller's combat.



Ah! Snapshot is awesome.

I seem to recall my house fix that if you allow stacking in that game, the 'close range' section on the combat tables make more sense. My suspicions were later confirmed in Azhanti High Lightning.
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Re: Dungeon grid layout
« Reply #12 on Aug 7, 2012, 10:26pm »
Holmes has movement rates of 20 ft per combat round (10 sec) for an unarmored man and 10 ft per combat round for a fully armored man. B2 (pg 3) clarifies that it's 5 ft per round for fully armored, fully encumbered, and that a monster's rate is determined by dividing it's movement by 12. These numbers would work well with a grid of 5' or 10' squares. The Holmes sample dungeon has 10' squares, and some gigantic rooms, so there's room for movement.

Holmes also has two or three characters per 10' wide corridor (pg 20). Attacks from behind get first blow, superseding Dex (pg 21). They could also be interpreted as getting the same bonus as for fleeing (+2 to hit, shields don't count).

The early 90's Basic Set and modules (Thunder Rift) came with poster maps of the dungeons with 5' squares for playing on a grid. This was during the era of 2E, so it seems that is the time when the 5' square became standard.
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Re: Dungeon grid layout
« Reply #13 on Aug 7, 2012, 10:34pm »

Aug 7, 2012, 3:35pm, Cameron DuBeers wrote:
OD&D states you can have 3 man-sized creatures fighting side-by-side in a ten foot corridor (Volume III: UW&WA p. 12 underlined text at the top of the page).

Your idea may have come from the zone of control idea often used in wargames, including Chainmail (p, 16 "All types of troops are considered to control the space 1 " on either side of themselves to stop infiltration."


Whereas since Chainmail is 1:20, we used the two rules above to assume that three men abreast completely filled a ten foot width. I remember discussing this with Gary and Rob and a couple other folks.
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Re: Dungeon grid layout
« Reply #14 on Aug 7, 2012, 11:17pm »

Aug 7, 2012, 10:34pm, gronanofsimmerya wrote:
Whereas since Chainmail is 1:20, we used the two rules above to assume that three men abreast completely filled a ten foot width. I remember discussing this with Gary and Rob and a couple other folks.


That makes sense to me, and is another example of Chainmail and OD&D meshing together very nicely. Thanks!
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