From the times I had the opportunity to speak with Dave Arneson, he frequently answered my "why?" questions with "we were kids, we made something up and it worked." Somehow that came across as far more believable than some other detailed accounts I heard from other sources.
For RPGs, moreso than other games, is why developing your game through actual play leads to good results.
Doesn't mean that upfront design doesn't have its place but the dynamic natures of RPGs places a premium on what actually works at the table.
« Last Edit: Aug 7, 2012, 10:32am by robertsconley »
Far out. I'm going to have to get this... AFTER I write "We made up some nuts we thought would be fun," which is my memoir of gaming 1972 - 1980.
It'll be interesting to compare historical documentation against "this is what happened when I was a sixteen year old kid hanging around with Gary Gygax, as best as I can remember forty years later."
"Made up some nuts?" Oh, CROM!
The actual title will be "Made up some $h*t we thought would be fun."
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
And to be totally clear, Mike, I think both memory and history have their place and both yield valuable results. I love 40 Years of Gen Con, but I think it serves a really different purpose than an anthology of documentary evidence.
From the times I had the opportunity to speak with Dave Arneson, he frequently answered my "why?" questions with "we were kids, we made something up and it worked." Somehow that came across as far more believable than some other detailed accounts I heard from other sources.
If I may say so, I think you get a pretty good plug in Playing at the World.
Well, I'd buy it anyway.
I'm interested in how things happened BEFORE that day in 1972 when Rob Kuntz said to Don Kaye and me, "Gary's got this cool new game called Greyhawk. You're a bunch of guys exploring an old abandoned wizard's castle full of monsters and treasure and stuff."
And yes, we were kids making stuff up. Rob was "king" of the Castle and Crusade Society when he was 15, and Joe Fisher was 17 or 18 when he wrote up the Ranger for an early issue of Dragon.
And as far as the "other detailed account," that which is not understood gets mythologized.
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: _Playing at the World_ and Domesday Book #1 « Reply #18 on Aug 9, 2012, 6:19am »
Got it in the mail yesterday and am around 50 pages (plus long intro) into the book. Wow. This is a fantastic read, although a textbook-y one. Best thing I've read in a long time, academic wise.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
This is a fantastic read, although a textbook-y one.
Agreed. It's like a published PhD dissertation. But that's a good thing!
My copy from Amazon arrived in excellent condition yesterday, and before bed I read various topics of interest. I was to see a few pages on the Holmes Basic set with some info I didn't know about previously.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: _Playing at the World_ and Domesday Book #1 « Reply #20 on Aug 9, 2012, 10:59am »
This is probably fodder for a new thread, but reading this book is bringing back some awesome memories for me. Not exactly following the events of the book, understand, since (so far) they were about 5 years ahead of my time, but this book is getting me to remember what it was like to be a teenaged gamer at the early end of a hobby.
I'm in the process now of trying to remember which year was my first GenCon, when certain things in my gaming life happened. Playing wargames with little cardboard counters instead of plastic minis. Playing Chainmail on an actual sand table instead of discussing a "sandbox" campaign. The first time I got to see a copy of the OD&D rules and decipher the rules. Making up dungeon mazes and playing before we had even finished reading the rulebook, then laughing later on when we realized how badly we messed up some stuff. Making my first megadungeon, before we'd ever heard the term used. Getting copies of the Strategic Review and realizing that others (older kids) were also playing and making up their own rules, too. Joining the local college RPG club even though we were only in high school.
Reading about the early groups self-publishing rules reminds me that in many ways we are in a second Renaissance of the hobby, where (thanks to the 3E OGL) folks can create something cool and share with others. I keep thinking about the clean, crisp look of OD&D, First Fantasy Campaign, and other books of the 1970's. For me, nice easy-to-read font on white paper with simple B&W drawings is to me really a lot of what gaming is all about. And rules that look like I could have written them, not something slick and hardback with awesome art that I could never have done.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Re: _Playing at the World_ and Domesday Book #1 « Reply #21 on Aug 9, 2012, 11:10am »
Some of my friends did jokingly refer to the book as my dissertation as I worked on it, but I think I'd have a hard time finding an advisor willing to sponsor this work at any reputable history department. Maybe in a few years.
I would not be surprised to see my book cited in an academic study here and there, though.
I think I'd have a hard time finding an advisor willing to sponsor this work at any reputable history department.
That's a sad commentary on the world of education. (And I'm an educator.) Seems to me that if a person has a passion for a topic, and if there is enough background information for research, that any topic should be fair game. Why not a study of a 40-year-old genesis of a hobby?
It's not like there wasn't enough source material to fill the book up with footnotes and quotes and other legit research...
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Oct 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 350 Location: Seattle Karma: 31
Re: _Playing at the World_ and Domesday Book #1 « Reply #23 on Aug 11, 2012, 10:41pm »
I purchased the book shortly after reading about it here on these boards, and soon downloaded and read through the Kindle sample. I am well into the second chapter of the paperback and am very much enjoying the book. I had skipped around a bit while reading the sample to get to what I thought were the "good bits", but after inattentively reading through the sample I went back and read the whole thing from the beginning carefully while waiting for the paperback to be delivered. I am glad that footnotes are used so that they can easily be read. I usually skip most footnotes and read through endnotes all at once after finishing a book read for entertainment, but in this case the footnotes are riveting and I am glad to have them to read.
I have found a small number of typos and there are a few points made so far that I would dispute, but overall I am finding the book to be a terrific read. It is well researched and very entertaining (well, it should be very entertaining to anyone on these boards I think if not to the general public). It will definitely sit comfortably next to Perla's and Dunnigan's books as one of the very few worthwhile books written on wargaming.
Re: _Playing at the World_ and Domesday Book #1 « Reply #24 on Aug 12, 2012, 12:43am »
After you read the third chapter, I'd be interested to know if you still feel like you need Perla on your shelf. I did aim pretty explicitly to render the historical account in his book (and its sources, really) obsolete. So far most of the reaction to the book has understandably been about the RPG coverage, but I'm hoping that the huge amount of wargaming research I did won't be totally overshadowed.
I usually skip most footnotes and read through endnotes all at once after finishing a book read for entertainment, but in this case the footnotes are riveting and I am glad to have them to read.
I'm that way, too. I typically find that footnotes are too distracting, as I lose the focus of the passage when I go to the footnotes. But in this case the footnotes are often quite fascinating. I't slowing down my reading somewhat, but makes the experience better.
I have found a small number of typos and there are a few points made so far that I would dispute, but overall I am finding the book to be a terrific read.
Sounds like there should be more threads started on this. 1. Jon would probably appreciate a thread that contains typos in case he wants to update his master file or in case there is a second printing of the book. 2. Individual points to dispute or discuss would make some good threads as well. If we get enough of them I might open a sub-board somewhere to contain them all.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
After you read the third chapter, I'd be interested to know if you still feel like you need Perla on your shelf. I did aim pretty explicitly to render the historical account in his book (and its sources, really) obsolete.
Interesting. I am looking forward to it. I'll have to reread Perla too.
So far most of the reaction to the book has understandably been about the RPG coverage, but I'm hoping that the huge amount of wargaming research I did won't be totally overshadowed.
I have always been a wargamer first and a role-player second (I currently play wargames and have a group I meet infrequently with, but have not managed to find a group for playing D&D that has a schedule convenient for me) so I am more interested in the wargame aspect of the book than most I suppose.
Sounds like there should be more threads started on this. 1. Jon would probably appreciate a thread that contains typos in case he wants to update his master file or in case there is a second printing of the book. 2. Individual points to dispute or discuss would make some good threads as well. If we get enough of them I might open a sub-board somewhere to contain them all.
I think having some threads for this is a very good idea.
They could go under "OD&D Study", or they could go under the General board, since it does touch on wargaming and as well as fiction and movies. I think it might be best to use the General heading because the threads might get less attention under the lower-traffic Study board.
1. Jon would probably appreciate a thread that contains typos in case he wants to update his master file or in case there is a second printing of the book. 2. Individual points to dispute or discuss would make some good threads as well. If we get enough of them I might open a sub-board somewhere to contain them all.
Well, to be honest, I'm more interested in points of substantial disagreement than in typos. With any work of this size and complexity, there are sure to be errors, both editorial errors and gaffes in the research. If there are historical points that are actually wrong, I definitely want to know that.
If I ever do a later edition I'm sure I'll be much more concerned about the latter errors than the former. I do hope that the release of this book will encourage research and tease out more sources that I didn't have the opportunity to see. Especially in the age of the Internet, a book can't be the last word - but I'll think I succeeded if the overall narrative and the big ideas stick, for a while, and if I manage to convince fans of games to be more skeptical and demand more documentary evidence before they accept a version of events.
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to see a few pages on the Holmes Basic set with some info I didn't know about previously.
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