But TSR in its early years was the kind of organization that could put out an EPT - they both had the support and the philosophy that put it forward, as much as it was clearly a parallel to the D&D game to which so much of TSR was now staked. I hardly think it's fair to judge TSR by taking out of consideration one of their pioneering products.
EPT was a MAR Barker product, published for less than a decade by TSR, but it existed as a game setting decades before and as a continuously published setting not owned by TSR, decades after TSR had it in their catalog. So, it was more in the line of a setting over which TSR had a temporary liscence, so to speak, and that's why I marked it as an exception.
What I'd ask about Red Tide is how gameworthy it is. A lot of settings are very detailed but not conducive to actual games; the detailed settings that TSR put out in its later years, for instance, sometimes seemed to be better read than played. Meanwhile the Wilderlands may not seem like a "sophisticated" setting but it is almost nothing but pure game-ready detail. I'd argue that this is more relevant to a game than how mature the setting is seen to be.
I absolutely agree that GH, BM, and WL are very conducive to gaming. Red Tide is no less gameworthy, however. It's an outstanding product.
It makes sense but fails to take into account that people have different strengths and skills. A playwright may be a crap actor and an actor may be the world's best, but couldn't write a play if his life depended on it.
It is possible to be a great DM but be crap at coming up with your own ideas, just as an actor can be brilliant at delivering other people's lines, but crap at writing a play. It doesn't make the actor of any less worth than the playwright, nor does it make the DM who leans on the creative works of others of any less worth than those who are gifted in that area.
You seem to think otherwise Kent.
I don't think it is hard for a DM to steal ideas from his favourite genre material, films or books, for his gaming melting pot. As an activity it is as enjoyable as playing through the material on gameday. It is tempting to compare different approaches to DMing to playwrights, directors and actors but I don't think the comparison stands up because for me the best D&D DMs have nothing like the degree of talent that even mediocre actors and writers have.
I have experimented with this. After three or so games of my previous campaign I got two players who were new to roleplaying (not just D&D) to each take a turn in the DMing hotseat. One created a city for a bunch of drunken sailors to cause trouble in. The other created a Vancian wilderness with strange series of mountain valleys filled with a native american people. They were both nervous beforehand but provided us with great entertainment which they had invested with their own personality.
Kent, how do you feel about those of us without products, that just produce for the OSR? There are around a dozen or so blogs out there that just provide material for people to use. Someone wrote me the other day to ask if they could use my format to do the same. As it isn't 'my' format by any stretch of the imagination and I encourage people to be creative, to run with their ideas and do whatever they can to be creative. To date I have 1184 blog posts, around twenty are not gaming posts. I am creating products to sell, but mostly this will be tie-ins, although I am organizing and illustrating a compendium as well.
Any examples of creativity and technique which help and encourage others to personally develop their own campaigns is great in my book.
It is tempting to compare different approaches to DMing to playwrights, directors and actors but I don't think the comparison stands up because for me the best D&D DMs have nothing like the degree of talent that even mediocre actors and writers have.
I'm not sure how you could know this. Who are these "best D&D DMs who fall so short? I know several DM's who are actors, others who are storytellers who might find that to be a somewhat schizophrenic distinction.
EPT was a MAR Barker product, published for less than a decade by TSR, but it existed as a game setting decades before
When Phil had it it was never in any way something that could be considered a "product," nor did it exist as a game setting.
To quote him after he'd played a few D&D games and then come back with his first version of EPT, "I had this world for years, now I finally know what to do with it."
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
Re: If you had to pick, would you go with TSR or O « Reply #80 on Jul 25, 2012, 9:52pm »
Even though there are many great products that have come out of the OSR, I had to choose TSR. I have too many great memories of the items I have or had. Don't get me wrong I think the OSR has done some good things but, in a perfect world we would still be able to get the OoP TSR stuff cheap and easy...
Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 150 Location: York, Pennsylvania, USA Karma: 5
Re: If you had to pick, would you go with TSR or O « Reply #81 on Jul 26, 2012, 12:46am »
Just to throw my own hat in the ring, I'd have to go with the OSR. The reason simply being several made points about being able to run OD&D from memory and create anything from its framework, so why do I need all that material from 3+ decades ago. I have all the memories of the older games I played in. Perfect? No, but enough that I can run a game and fill in my own unique blanks from the things I don't remember. New OSR material may have some redundancy, but there are diamonds in those roughs, you just need to find the ones that appeal to you.
So for me in this scenario, the OSR material would allow me to fill in old blanks with new ideas, some of which I might not have thought of. I think that's what makes it all worthwhile.
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
Koren n'Rhys Level 5 Thaumaturgist member is offline
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Joined: Jun 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 223 Location: Norwich, NY, USA Karma: 7
Re: If you had to pick, would you go with TSR or O « Reply #83 on Jul 26, 2012, 2:23pm »
I'll second the support of the Red Tide setting - I think it's fantastic.
The setting itself is an interesting twist on a fantasy world/campaign setting. That, in and of itself, may not be for everyone as tastes may vary. I like the slightly Asian feel and some of the twists Kevin put into the "Sandbox" portion. Will I run a game in the setting? No, that's pretty unlikely, but I will use bits and pieces I like and wouldn't have come up with on my own.
More to the point of Cadriel's question though: The "Toolkit" section of the books give some great tables and tools for developing the game world. Creation of villages, cities, political factions - all sorts of stuff.
To come add in a comment to Kent's take on all this, I'd say I have a hard time coming up with original content. At least the initial ideas for it. I can take a stack of published product, be it TSR, OSR or otherwise and mine for ideas. From there, I'll tweak and modify to the point that what I run will be "original." I just need the push to get me going. Published modules, blogs, forums and "toolkits" provide that spark.
I just would have little interest talking with DMs who played through gygax' modules, or OSR modules. I can read that stuff myself and all they really can offer in the way of conversation are play reports.
So I am interested in creative people discussing their work, less so the products, because I create material by myself.
The problem as I see it with the OSR is the passivity with which other peoples products are discussed. Too many people are not creative themselves and too few are discussing the process of invention and ingenuity. And so I rant every now and then about consigning the marketplace to the bin and urging every DM to be creative and not dependant on others and in this way they may have something interesting to regale us with at the mead hall.
Does that make any sense?
Yes, I think so. I have also been advocating active engagement vs. passive consumption for a long time now. This hobby is built on it, and I believe it has to reaffirm its commitment to it if it wants to survive in an age of passive entertainment.
Do "products" have a place in this scheme? I have mentioned their possible advantages in the previous posts. What is specifically important for old school is that I had been out of gaming for years due to burnout and disgust, and they had helped in relearning good practice, and picking up new tricks. Some of these were TSR classics, some from JG and some from Necromancer Games. Beyond inspiration, there is learning, relearning and sometimes unlearning (trying to tell a story vs. letting it happen, and so on).
And the preservation of ideas. By all accounts, Dave Arneson was a wonderful GM - but he didn't write down his ideas so all we have is The Temple of The Frog, a few co-authored products and a few stories. Dave's work is largely lost to us. We know what Paul Jaquays, Bob Bledsaw and Gary Gygax were doing, because they wrote about their campaigns. Noted, if the Rythlondar document had been more broadly circulated, it and the First Fantasy Campaign could also have become models of a sort. But they weren't.
But yes, products should strive to be "creativity aid, not creativity replacement" (I forget who wrote that, but I think it comes from the K&KA), and should come with product warnings amounting to "All within are merely an inspiration for the active and pontifical judges of the guild. Please alter, illuminate, expand, modify, extrapolate, interpolate, shrink and further manipulate all contained to suit the tenor of your campaign."
(And with this, I must leave the discussion to the rest of you, since I am leaving on a vacation tomorrow, and will not be taking my net connection along. Maybe I'll drop by on Friday morning, but that's a maybe.)
it will always be hobbits and not halflings for me regardless of how many hissyfits Chris Tolkien has.
You mean Saul Zaentz.
Back in the 70's the only name I heard as the grinch in the works was Chris Tolkien, although granted without the internet what little I heard about such things was 3rd or 4th hand. I did not know who Saul Zaentz was until I looked him up. Very evil man, it is clear that his actions are not about protecting IP, they are clearly just the actions of a cowardly bully.
How about, "I still HAVE all my OD&D stuff, and bought the PDFs when they were legal, so why the heck should I change?"
How about I still have my OD&D stuff, I bought pdfs when they were legal. I don't have to choose one or the other, I can use both, ie have my cake and eat it too. I say no to all those who want us to choose, when there is no reason to choose. It is one camp, not two. We can have the TSR stuff and we can have all the new stuff that we want or at least the free stuff, plus whatever we can afford of the rest of the stuff (and nothing wrong with making some money if you can).
We do not have to choose and no one can make us choose. I say fie on the dividers - don't waste our time. Let us all keep creating and let it grow as it will. The more old school D&D compatible material the better. Cheers to all who create stuff free or for sale!!
I have never used a module (TSR or the so-called OSR) in a campaign and likely never will; but I have and do read everything I can find time to read. I have done this all my life and will continue to do so. Any ideas I like will sooner or later find its way into my campaign one way or another. So please keep writing, creating and producing. Just because I don't use a module directly, doesn't mean it doesn't get used.
How about, "I still HAVE all my OD&D stuff, and bought the PDFs when they were legal, so why the heck should I change?"
I didn't take the OP to mean we had to all hand in our books and only go with one thing from here on in, but the poll only allows one of 2 choices. So In the realm of the OP, a theoretical decision needs be made.
Personally, all the deep psychological discussion that's taken over the thread has been interesting to read, but there is no right answer or wrong one, only the answer that you feel is right for you.
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