1. I/We have a story we want to tell, and we're not going to let a dice roll change the outcome to something we don't like.
Then why bother dice at all? Or any other randomizer such as drawing cards, reading tea-leaves or tossing coins? Just sit around each other and tell the story you wish, kids do it all the time. Of course you won't be playing a RPG then, just telling stories. If you are playing a RPG then with the passage of time the re-telling of your adventures, including the outcomes that you didn't like, might form something similar to a story.
2. I (as DM) set up a situation in which the die rolls matter, and change the outcome of the story that is being made up while we play, but I try to exclude situations where the die rolls might result in seemingly meaningless death and/or frustration.
I would fully support this attitude, emphasis on meaningless death. When the inevitable conversations about dying in RPGs come up, persons often forget there is a world of difference between meaningful and useful vs. meaningless and useless, regardless of the death being the result of a randomizer or not. I do not mind, in fact I would cherish the memory, if my PC died in single combat with the avatar of the demon lover of Goddess Kali to allow the party time to escape. I would mind if he dies because a retarded goblin hit him on the foot with a board with a rusty nail on it while he was sleeping.
I think Luke and his crew found their way from perspective 1 to perspective 2, which is a tremendous achievement involving some very open minds.
"Tremendous achievement?" "Very open minds?"
I think you are giving Luke and his crew too much credit. What would that make of those us that groked perspectives 2 and 1 from the very begining? Natural Born Geniuses?
What would that make of those us that groked perspectives 2 and 1 from the very begining? Natural Born Geniuses?
Well, I didn't want to blow our own horns, but since you mention it...
Seriously, though. I didn't grok much of anything at the beginning, I just had fun with the rules I had (B/X) and recently started understanding why. If I'd been introduced to gaming through computer RPGs and console games, where there's a story that your character is eventually going to "complete", I think I'd be pretty confused about what is going on in a classic D&D game.
I've exchanged a few emails with the man and he seems a pleasant and thoughtful fellow, and I know his Burning Wheel game is somewhat popular and I think it had something to do with encouraging the indie/experimental game movement. But otherwise I must confess ignorance. Is luke as "famous" as some of you seem to imply?
I have three of the four Luke Crane's games: The Burning Wheel, Burning Empires and Mouse Guard, and every supplement for all three. I have not played BE (yet) but the other two are my two favorite role-playing games. And he is pretty well known, I think.
I recommend that you take a look at the Gold edition of The Burning Wheel when you consider the final appearance of CoZ. It's a 600 pages hardcover A5 book and it cost $25 only. Very impressive! It has the best layout, fonts and general design I can imagine. So it's a good model to follow. (I consider Carcosa another magnificently well designed book and another great model for CoZ final look.)
But it's a completely different game to OD&D, another beast entirely. It's not a replacement in any way. It's a game about personal drama, completely character driven, without pre-plot, without authoritarian master. Although it is a medieval fantasy game (in principle, can be historical or science fiction) you can play without monsters, without combat, without deaths, and will remain basically the same game without a difference. (It has a detailed system for social conflict that is largely analogous to the two combat systems, so you don't need battles to make it tactical. You only need strong protagonists fighting for what they believe.) It's a very rewarding game, but it takes some time to learn how to play it well.
But this is not a topic about BW, and I've talked too much. If you want to know more about this system, you can go here, when a player wrote a brilliant review about the game. I can not recommend it highly enough. Go and see for yourself.
In my VERY FIRST OD&D session that I ran at the U of MN, the brand new players with their brand new PCs encountered 4 kobolds.
When the dust settled, one kobold had taken 3 points of damage... it could take 4 ... and ALL the PCs were dead.
There was about five seconds of silence... then one of the players said "Let's roll new characters and get those little f*ckers!!!"
Which they did.
What a great tale! It is as if players where like lighting in a bottle back then. Today an event like that would most likely put off folks from playing the game again.
In my VERY FIRST OD&D session that I ran at the U of MN, the brand new players with their brand new PCs encountered 4 kobolds.
When the dust settled, one kobold had taken 3 points of damage... it could take 4 ... and ALL the PCs were dead.
There was about five seconds of silence... then one of the players said "Let's roll new characters and get those little f*ckers!!!"
Which they did.
What a great tale! It is as if players where like lighting in a bottle back then. Today an event like that would most likely put off folks from playing the game again.
Not in my experience. I've recently killed some newbie players' PC's and they were very much ready to grab the dice and roll up new characters.
The players in question were utterly new to rpg's, though. If you're pulling in players who are used to more modern games, I can see where the situation might be different.
I run an open table at a local D&D Meet-up Group. Usually OSRIC, or Swords & Wizardry. I do make sure that anyone who hasn't played before, has at least an idea of what they're getting themselves into.
I do occasionally get "new school" gamers, who decide to sit in when what's being run in the other room isn't to their liking. Sometimes they show up again next session. Sometimes not.
In my experience, gamers aren't anywhere near as "Balkanized" in meat-space, as the online communities are. Maybe the gaming scene in Alabama is just more casual. Chaosium's BRP is the "preferred" system with most of the Meet-Up Group, though a fairly large variety of games get played.
I always get from 5 to 7 players sitting in at my "old school D&D" table, so I'm good.
Not in my experience. I've recently killed some newbie players' PC's and they were very much ready to grab the dice and roll up new characters.
The players in question were utterly new to rpg's, though. If you're pulling in players who are used to more modern games, I can see where the situation might be different.
Yes, I should have specified I was referring mostly to non-total newbie players. It's like any other vice I guess, get'em while their young and ignorant. New players who are deeply into CRPGs or MORPGs might have some preconceptions not very sympathetic to classical tabletop gaming too.
In my experience, gamers aren't anywhere near as "Balkanized" in meat-space, as the online communities are. Maybe the gaming scene in Alabama is just more casual.
I would say both your assertions are correct, with regional variations. The RPG medium I was in during college was anything but diverse (Vampire and 3rd Ed only), and I met a Frenchman once who came from a small town that is something of a gaming mecca with many playing groups and where the only game played was Vampire: the Masquerade. He described it as the bane of his life, almost.
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New players who are deeply into CRPGs or MORPGs might have some preconceptions not very sympathetic to classical tabletop gaming too.