Re: Gary Gygax wrote my D&D manifesto back in 1975 « Reply #15 on Apr 15, 2012, 11:06am »
On K&KA, Grodog highlighted another quote from the same letter:
Quote:
Thanks again for sending AandE. It was most enjoyable. Watch out though, that it doesn't start DandD down the road of DIPLOMACY fandom with its constant feuds, bickering, invective, etc.
I think this is the seed that grew into the change in his outlook (and that became part of AD&D).
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
I think this is the seed that grew into the change in his outlook (and that became part of AD&D).
An intriguing thought. Was Diplomacy fandom particularly acrimonious with regards to rules? That is, were rules arguments commonplace in "Dippy" 'zines like Liaisons Dangereuses? I played Diplomacy a lot as a younger man and had many an argument about it, but I don't recall almost any that had their origins in the rules
Re: Gary Gygax wrote my D&D manifesto back in 1975 « Reply #17 on Apr 15, 2012, 2:15pm »
At first glance the quote seems a direct contradiction with what Gary would later push when AD&D came about. He seemed to go from the stance presented above to his stance of pushing for uniformity and standards almost over night. You have to remember though that TSR was, at the end of the day, a business.
If you want to push a new product as superior to the old then you have to make it sound like the old product is inferior. So you get what you did with Gary's comments about D&D becoming a non-game and wanting to have a 'final authority' set for the game. The comments were made to do one thing: Sell AD&D.
If you look at how Gary ran his D&D games you will see that the above quote stays true to what he did personally not professionally. We again see the two sides to not only Gary but to TSR as well. Publicly certain standards needed to be enforced but privately it seems anything was acceptable.
As for the standardization it seemed to be what was needed. AD&D obviously did well and D&D was reworked into a new game (Moldvay/Cook then Mentzer) that followed the same ideas set forth in AD&D. The fact that this version of D&D has such a large following speaks to what Gary and others saw as needing to happen on the professional front.
Re: Gary Gygax wrote my D&D manifesto back in 1975 « Reply #18 on Apr 17, 2012, 8:21pm »
I love that quote.
I don't know why people have such an issue with the seeming flip-flop. When Gygax wrote that, the game was in it's infancy. He didn't even have any idea where it was going to go.
That quote shows his gamer level idealistic view. Later on reality set in and he saw the issues associated with totally open and unknown. The game absolutely needed a bit of structure to let people even talk about it.
At some point we all went too far and EVERYTHING was a known quantity. That gets bland. That quote sounds great to me (and I'm sure a lot of people) because that is what was missing from these types of game for too long.
I really liked discovering some of the old Judge's Guild stuff a few years ago for the exact reason that it was strange and non-normal. My players had no idea what to expect out of a "Boiling Mud-Monster."
The reality is that these games need both structure and the unknown. By picking apart things Gygax said over the course of 30+ years we are not understanding the journey. Of course his attitude changed over the years (and probably back and forth many times). Mine certainly have. Context is also very important.
At the end of the day, I love the quote Geoffrey posted, not because it is 100% correct all of the time, or that it's the only way to play, but because of the greatness that it evokes and the important things it reminds us of that can be easily forgotten.
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Re: Gary Gygax wrote my D&D manifesto back in 1975 « Reply #19 on Apr 20, 2012, 9:15pm »
It's not that the quote is a drastic change from later views, it's that it's a change from about 18 months down the road, AD&D MM was released in 77, it took time to put that tome together, and changes of what AD&D were likely being decided before that. Maybe that change of heart took place after the MM, but in any case, it's a 180 change of attitude in what most people would consider a pretty short period of time.
Yes, I'm sure that business pressure had a lot to do with it. But, I wonder what RPGs look like if this quote was the guiding principle for the last 40 years and not the one set of rules to rule them all.
It's not that the quote is a drastic change from later views, it's that it's a change from about 18 months down the road ...
When you're under pressure? 18 months can be an eternity. You're out of line and you should just let it go. Holding hatred in your heart can eat you up. I don't believe anyone here thinks they guy is a saint but most of us look up to the fellow.
It's not that the quote is a drastic change from later views, it's that it's a change from about 18 months down the road ...
When you're under pressure? 18 months can be an eternity. You're out of line and you should just let it go. Holding hatred in your heart can eat you up. I don't believe anyone here thinks they guy is a saint but most of us look up to the fellow.
I'm not out of line. You seem to think, from reading your other posts here, that you can come in and tell people what to post and what to think, though. From my experience here, that is what is out of line. Hostility is out of line here.
You've interpreted my comments as hatred, this isn't true. I do have regret that the D&D that I originally experienced and grew to love, wasn't the D&D that went on to flame out a short 10 years later. I do believe that it was the open inventiveness and unlocking of imagination that caused D&D and RPGs to be explode onto the market. I do think that greed and business caused it to grind and slow down.
I've run into this effect many times over the years as I done business. My partner and I are very aware of this effect and even then have to fight it. People are naturally greedy, we want what we believe is ours and we'll fight to keep it. Simply, people try to get the biggest percentage of the pie that they can because of this natural greed. The truth of the matter is though, often the best move is to get involved in the biggest pie you can find and worry less about your percentage of the pie.
I think the change in attitude is exactly that same shift. Rather than try and capture the imagination and inventiveness of as many people as possible, to grow the market to as many people as possible, because really what's the market cap on people/kids who like to play pretend, rather than to control the market as much as possible.
As for Gary specifically, I owe him and Dave and crew more than probably most. I make my living off of gaming, but it doesn't mean that I treat every word or deed of his as sacrosanct.
....You have to remember though that TSR was, at the end of the day, a business.
If you want to push a new product as superior to the old then you have to make it sound like the old product is inferior. So you get what you did with Gary's comments about D&D becoming a non-game and wanting to have a 'final authority' set for the game. The comments were made to do one thing: Sell AD&D.
Gentlemen, may I humbly suggest that undertaking all sorts of mental gymnastics to reconcile one cherished image with another not so cherished image of any public figure is an exercise in self delusion.
There was one Gary Gygax, not two or four. TSR was indeed a business, and what he said in 1974, was calculated to sell the product he had, just as was what he said in 1979. Both statements may be taken with that seasoning in mind. There is no inconsistency in what Gary did throughout his life, except that he famously mellowed with old age.
You seem to think, from reading your other posts here, that you can come in and tell people what to post and what to think, though. From my experience here, that is what is out of line. Hostility is out of line here.
... and you seem to think you can into a forum dedicated to the work of a fellow and run him down. And your post seems pretty hostile to me.
Quote:
You've interpreted my comments as hatred, this isn't true.
However you meant them, they sounded hateful. You keep steering the conversation back to EGG's faults.
Quote:
I do have regret that the D&D that I originally experienced and grew to love...
Here we have some common ground.
Quote:
As for Gary specifically, I owe him and Dave and crew more than probably most. I make my living off of gaming, but it doesn't mean that I treat every word or deed of his as sacrosanct.
If you'uns read my post, you know without my repeating that I am aware of that.
Look ... we got off on the wrong foot, here, in a different thread. And I'll allow the fault for that lies entirely with me. I'll give you the last word and do my best to git along with you in the future.
If that sounds solid to you, then welcome friend. If not, I'll go my way and you go your'n and I'll do my best not to rile you again.
If that sounds solid to you, then welcome friend. If not, I'll go my way and you go your'n and I'll do my best not to rile you again.
I appreciate the conciliatory note. I accept the gesture in which is it given, and I'm interested in continuing to have a civil discussions with you in the future.
Please note, however, this is a forum dedicated to D&D in it's original 1974 form, there are several forums where the later direction which D&D went are what it is all about, and where an intolerance of certain views are rampant. This has been a board where respectful discussion has always taken place. I don't believe idolatry has ever been a goal here, I'll let Fin correct me if I'm mistaken.
Please go back and read my previous posts, I don't have hatred for Gary or later D&D. I wondered where our hobby would be if it had continued in the open nature of the original form, which this forum is dedicated to, and not the more closed and, imo, business driven form of D&D. You'll note I've not cast personal aspersions at Gary, or if I have, then I was in the wrong. I mourn the decisions and direction changes that were made and wish things had continued in that vein. None of this is a personal attack on Gary or his family. I have no animosity towards him, his kin, nor anyone in the early days. I can't say I wouldn't have made similar decisions back then. If I had then, then I would be regretting those decisions now.
Please also note that in 6 posts since you've been here, you've told two different people that they were out of line and that they needed to cool it. I'll say that it's the first time in the 3+ years I've seen this from anyone. I've seen people say they were offended by something or that they thought someone crossed a line. But, for the most part, we let people police themselves and if things get very out of control, we let Fin step in. We're here to talk about many things and accept many views of things. There have been large disagreements and even dramatic events, but censorship has never been a goal, as I understand it.
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Re: Gary Gygax wrote my D&D manifesto back in 1975 « Reply #26 on Apr 24, 2012, 11:11am »
Aldarron, thanks - that is an interesting take and I think you're probably right. Sort of thing I tend to be too naive to spot normally.
In terms of why there was a push towards 'officialdom', I think we can see a lot of elements at play. James is right to note that big money changes people's calculations in many cases. But there was also
-the feud with Arneson that led to the rules change (so they needed something more specific so they could say it was not the original game, although out in the world AD&D was very much absorbed as a continuation of the original game, as was 2e, which isn't to say everyone made the jump of course)
- the huge amount of third party product, which both seemed to push the initial open-mindedness to the limit and beyond (150th level Paladins being a possibliity of the Arduin Grimoires and some other home games seeming a bridge too far, for example - Gary says as much in a Dragon editorial during the transition period) and left, I am sure, Gary and the TSR coterie feeling like they were leaving large amounts of money on the table (though often this is not actually true in the RPG world) by letting other people publish all that stuff.
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Re: Gary Gygax wrote my D&D manifesto back in 1975 « Reply #27 on Apr 26, 2012, 10:09pm »
Here is a reply to a question about the seeming change in attitude by Gygax and TSR that I posted to Dragonsfoot. I may be way off base and giving too much credit to the West Coast players and their zines, contact with Gygax and alternate game systems such as Warlock (or Dungeons & Beavers as it as called). So far I have transcribed 3 letter by Gygax published in Alarums&Excursions and a small review of A&E published in The Strategic Review. There are also several articles published in SR and later in the Dragon that I believe illustrate the change in attitude from the one expressed in Gygax's letter to A&E2. Beyond these first few years the company was so successful that I doubt there was much concern about these original D&D players, their zines and their variants, but I think that the early conflict between these players and Gygax had a heavy influence on his future attitude toward the game, variants and the players.
Here is that post.
There are further exchanges in future issues of A&E, though between different contributers of the fanzine and not Gygax. (I do have another Gygax letter to transcribe published in A&E 15, but this one is more about D&D and his Castle Greyhawk campaign than the business of publishing. I think it should prove very interesting, though I believe what he says about his campaign in this letter has been quoted and paraphrased enough so that it seems familiar to me).
Actually I do think that you can see a change in attitude by Gygax and make out the possible reason for such a change in the articles and comments published in A&E, the Strategic Review and Dragon magazine.
These are the very early days of the game. D&D seems much more popular on the west coast than the east coast at this point. There are games being mentioned at MIT and in Boston, but NYC is mentioned as not having a D&D community as of yet. From the west coast gamers Gygax and TSR appear to be attacked on two fronts. One, the advocacy of photo-copying the rulebooks. The APA-L and Alarums & Excursions seemed to be important to the D&D community in its infancy and here is someone denegrating the contribution that Gygax and TSR are making to the game, refering to them as hobbyists and the D&D rules as simply fan creations, and saying that they do not owe Gygax or TSR a living, while justifying stealing the book sales by copying them. The second front is the rules variants and the variants are taken to the point that the caltech game publishes their own version (although it is very obscure and nothing really comes of it). If you read A&E it seems like a possibility that Warlock (eventually published as the Complete Warlock by Balboa Games) might be the beginning of RPGs using the D&D rules to sell their own variants. In The Strategic Review #6 (or #7, can't remember offhand) Gygax writes an article on the D&D magic system that seems to be a response to the A&E and caltech crowd, even commenting that some of the variants have gone too far and are no longer recognizable as D&D. A change from his comments in A&E #2.
In issue #14 of A&E the publishers state that variants of copyright D&D material will no longer be included in the zine (something which Gygax mentions in his letter published in issue #15).
The way APA's worked, and then Alarums & Excursions (the west coast zine) then The Wild Hunt (the east coasts zine) were not only to publish articles about D&D (new material, variants, dungeon experiences, convention experiences, etc...) but also as a forum for contributors to talk with each other, a very slow back and forth conversation. To some extent Gygax participated in this conversation during the 1st few years of the game, '74, '75, '76... with his letter in A&E and his articles and in SR and Dragon till the game grew beyond any expectations.
I just think that these early years and the influence of player and customer commentary from these zines played a heavy role in the changing (and not I believe unjustified) and more conservative attitude that Gygax and TSR seemed to develop in later years.
What I'm trying to do is archive and document this conversation.
..... In The Strategic Review #6 (or #7, can't remember offhand) Gygax writes an article on the D&D magic system that seems to be a response to the A&E and caltech crowd, even commenting that some of the variants have gone too far and are no longer recognizable as D&D. A change from his comments in A&E #2. .....
Noticed that, but i think the roots of this particular stance run deeper. In the A&E #2 letter you transcribed for us (Exalt!), Gygax wrote:
"To allow unlimited use of the spell is to make the m-u's too powerful. There is a better solution, of course; one I have been aware of since the first. That is to utilize a point system based on the m-u's basic abilities and his or her level. Spell cost is then taken as a function of the spell and the circumstances in which it is cast and possibly how much force is put into the spell. All that would have required a great deal of space and been far more complex to handle, so I opted for the simple solution."
I think here he is thinking of, and to some extent continuing, an early disagreement with Arneson. In Pegasus 1 Arneson said:
"I also wanted to get back to using a spell point magic which had been in the original system proposed for D&D and I thought spell point superior to the system that was used (as well as simpler)."
I mean this as no attack on his character, but it is easy enough to observe that regardless of what Mr. Gygax said about D&D being a flexible ruleset, he clearly intended to be seen as the last word on the game and the best way to play it - a position that inevitably grew less flexible over time.
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Re: Gary Gygax wrote my D&D manifesto back in 1975 « Reply #29 on Apr 27, 2012, 11:16am »
I think you have to also take into consideration that there were doubtless truckloads of mail with rules questions and suchlike flooding the mailboxes of TSR. I'm sure that ANY game designer dealing with that sort of thing for very long would be found shifting from a "free-wheeling" to "officialdom" mindset, if for no other reason than to preserve their own sanity.
As Tim Kask says in his article in Knockspell #1, "...The fun started to leech away within months. Now there were dicta, dogma and regulations; gone were the days of guidelines. And who was to blame for this sorry, disreputable state of affairs. The players…"
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