Joined: Oct 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,557 Karma: 87
Gary Gygax wrote my D&D manifesto back in 1975. « Thread Started on Apr 14, 2012, 11:46am »
Quote:
Dave and I disagree on how to handle any number of things, and both of our campaigns differ from the "rules" found in DandD. If the time ever comes when all aspects of fantasy are covered and the vast majority of its players agree on how the game should be played, DandD will have become staid and boring indeed. Sorry, but I don't believe that there is anything desirable in having various campaigns playing similarly to one another. DandD is supposed to offer a challenge to the imagination and to do so in many ways. Perhaps the most important is in regard to what the probabilities of a given situation are. If players know what all of the monster parameters are, what can be expected in a given situation, exactly what will happen to them if they perform thus and so, most of the charm of the game is gone. Frankly, the reason I enjoy playing in Dave Arneson's campaign is that I do not know his treatments of monsters and suchlike, so I must keep thinking and reasoning in order to "survive". Now, for example, if I made a proclamation from on high which suited Mr. Johnstone, it would certainly be quite unacceptable to hundreds or even thousands of other players. My answer is, and has always been, if you don't like the way I do it, change the bloody rules to suit yourself and your players. DandD enthusiasts are far too individualistic and imaginative a bunch to be in agreement, and I certainly refuse to play god for them -- except as a referee in my own campaign where they jolly well better toe the mark.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Joined: Nov 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 1,554 Location: Austin TX USA Karma: 151
Re: Gary Gygax wrote my D&D manifesto back in 1975 « Reply #3 on Apr 14, 2012, 1:33pm »
I don't think he flip-flopped so much as, like each of us, he had different aspects. Sometimes we were reading Gary the gamer's thoughts. Then, as pressure for success built from various quarters we began to hear from Gary the business-man more and more often. I can spot the guy a few inconsistences.
Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes. -Walt Whitman
So, how did he flip so much just a couple years later?
Do you mean the famous my way or the highway gygaxian motto? Or how he blamed people creating House Rules in non TSR Magazines for not being seasoned game designers like him?
IMHO the reason could simply be 50% ego 50% income from D&D.
So, how did he flip so much just a couple years later?
Do you mean the famous my way or the highway gygaxian motto? Or how he blamed people creating House Rules in non TSR Magazines for not being seasoned game designers like him?
IMHO the reason could simply be 50% ego 50% income from D&D.
If you pay attention to a lot of the stories there seems to have been two, maybe three, different versions of Gary. One, according to Bob Bledsaw, chided Bob for rolling the dice out in the open and/or letting players roll the dice.
Other things I have read have him praising the openness and creativity of the fans but then condemning them for making houserules. You also have him one day praising the flexibility of OD&D but then calling it a non-game due to the same flexibility.
There are times Gary would come off as the nicest guy in the world but in the same breath, he could be a real jerk. Yes, he was one of the founders of the hobby but he wasn't an infallible saint. I have found that with Gary for every one thing I agreed with there were three things I didn't.
If you pay attention to a lot of the stories there seems to have been two, maybe three, different versions of Gary.
I know, that's why Gygax is usually 49% loved, 49% hated and 2% neutral (where I belong to).
I've read too a lot of stories/reports about Gygax, like his habit to referee D&D sessions almost unseen by players (your Gygax #1) or his accommodating attitude with fans during Cons.
Anyway this weirdness is surely part of his iconic success.
[ There are times Gary would come off as the nicest guy in the world but in the same breath, he could be a real jerk. Yes, he was one of the founders of the hobby but he wasn't an infallible saint. I have found that with Gary for every one thing I agreed with there were three things I didn't.
You really don't have to resort to calling him a "jerk" to get your point across.
I don't think he flip-flopped so much as, like each of us, he had different aspects. Sometimes we were reading Gary the gamer's thoughts. Then, as pressure for success built from various quarters we began to hear from Gary the business-man more and more often. I can spot the guy a few inconsistences.
That's my take on it, too, though I also think -- and this isn't meant as a condemnation of the man -- that it was much easier to hold such an open-minded, collaborative position when D&D wasn't a faddish, world-wide phenomenon. Once the game started making real money, I think it was more or less inevitable that what we read in A&E and elsewhere would be forgotten, replaced by the ever-growing concern for official-dom we see in the AD&D books and in the pages of Dragon.
[ There are times Gary would come off as the nicest guy in the world but in the same breath, he could be a real jerk. Yes, he was one of the founders of the hobby but he wasn't an infallible saint. I have found that with Gary for every one thing I agreed with there were three things I didn't.
You really don't have to resort to calling him a "jerk" to get your point across.
I don't see why this is an issue. Anyone, including Gary has the potential to be one. Saying that he had this capability and that he showed it from time to time does nothing to belittle him.
Joined: Nov 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 1,554 Location: Austin TX USA Karma: 151
Re: Gary Gygax wrote my D&D manifesto back in 1975 « Reply #10 on Apr 14, 2012, 5:29pm »
I agree about our mutual capacity to be unpleasant, I'm that way all the time. Sometimes I feel it is justified and sometimes I just don't feel like being pleasant.
I don't agree with your need to use the label on a fellow who isn't here to defend himself but as I have no quarrel with you I will refrain from further comment.
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: Gary Gygax wrote my D&D manifesto back in 1975 « Reply #11 on Apr 15, 2012, 6:19am »
I don't think that JD meant "jerk" in a really insulting manner. I think he was simply trying to put a simple label on a way that a person sometimes acts, and a lot of people didn't like a certain side of Gary's personality. Stories I've heard many times indicate that Gary often enjoyed teaching a lesson to arrogant players. I'm sure many of them refused to learn the lesson but instead thought of him as something like a jerk. (I'm sure my students think of me the same way sometimes. ) Anyway, I don't think that JD was trying to be nasty or beat up on Gary.
Geoffrey, you've picked a great quote! Particularly this: Quote:
Frankly, the reason I enjoy playing in Dave Arneson's campaign is that I do not know his treatments of monsters and suchlike, so I must keep thinking and reasoning in order to "survive".
And this: Quote:
if you don't like the way I do it, change the bloody rules to suit yourself and your players.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
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) Anyway, I don't think that JD was trying to be nasty or beat up on Gary.