Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 9 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada Karma: 7
Re: 80% xp comes from treasure? « Reply #1 on Oct 7, 2011, 3:10pm »
I don't know if this is the first appearance, but in Moldvay Basic (1981) page B45 it says: "...most of the experience the characters will get will be from treasure (usually 3/4 or more)."
Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 278 Karma: 18
Re: 80% xp comes from treasure? « Reply #2 on Oct 7, 2011, 5:34pm »
If you go by the original figure of 100 xp per hD/level it takes 20 orcs to reach 2nd level as a Fighter on your own (if they are broke).
Going by the revisions in Greyhawk one would have to slay 200 poverty stricken orcs to become a 2nd level Fighter.
A Swords & Wizardry fighter would have to bump off 134 poverty stricken orcs to become 2nd level.
So, unless you have a campaign with poverty stricken PCs who battle poverty stricken monsters all of the time and you aren't using 100xp per HD/level treasure is going to be a significant portion of exp if one wants to avoid a glacial advancement rate for PCs.
Re: 80% xp comes from treasure? « Reply #3 on Oct 7, 2011, 6:41pm »
If you are asking where as in "where is the original citation" I am unsure. If you are after the basis for the idea I believe that the GP = XP idea originated as the proto-quest XP concept. The important part is to encourage the players to get the gold, not necessarily to encourage them to farm monsters.
In many cases it winds up to your benefit not to burn resources on a fight if you can find another way to achieve the riches.
Joined: Dec 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 294 Location: Miskatonic U Karma: 9
Re: 80% xp comes from treasure? « Reply #4 on Oct 7, 2011, 7:06pm »
I know that Bargle over at the K&K Alehouse mentioned this in a thread about NPC wealth, but I'm not sure where he got the figure from (it actually makes perfect sense in this context). I checked the 1ed DMG and the three LBB's and couldn't find it anywhere. Dragon/Strat Review perhaps?
"Those who swallow the camel of the entire concept, then strain at gnats of a particular monster or situation seem to be be losing much of the basis for playing. However, that sort of thing happens as one becomes familiar with the fanciful and begins to qualify the experience by comparison to reality." - EGG
Joined: Aug 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 35 Location: Sugar Grove, NC Karma: 2
Re: 80% xp comes from treasure? « Reply #7 on Oct 8, 2011, 3:05pm »
The original theory I read - and unfortunately, I can't think of where I heard or read it - is that if gold and such is worth more xp than just killing monsters, players will try to think of other ways of getting it besides just rushing in and killing everything in sight.
Again, I apologize for not knowing where I read this.
Joined: Jul 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 478 Karma: 37
Re: 80% xp comes from treasure? « Reply #8 on Oct 8, 2011, 10:51pm »
XP comes from gold because it turns wandering monsters into a hazard, not easy XP on the hoof a la "Knights of the Dinner Table". In a resource management game, wandering monsters are a wild card.
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
Re: 80% xp comes from treasure? « Reply #9 on Oct 9, 2011, 8:17pm »
The dungeon stocking rules don't seem to bear that out.
From my notes on an article that I never finished about leveling and XP progression in OD&D, Holmes, and BECMI, I found the following:
Quote:
Using the rules for random dungeon stocking from the OCE version of D&D, we know that on average:
1 in 3 rooms will have monsters. Of the rooms with monsters, 1 in 2 will have treasure. Of the rooms without monsters, 1 in 6 will have treasure.
. . . for every 24 rooms on a 1st level dungeon . . . A party will earn approximately 630 XP under the original tables for monsters. . . . If we add these amounts to the amount of XP earned from gold, i.e. 340 XP
Of course that assumes a party is able to defeat all challenges it faces and finds all treasure in a dungeon. I really need to finish writing and editing that article. I think people would find it interesting.
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Re: 80% xp comes from treasure? « Reply #10 on Oct 10, 2011, 12:36am »
True, but the dungeon random stocking rules assume you'll place the 'big' monsters (and thus the big treasures) and then go about stocking the rest randomly.
Joined: Jul 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 561 Karma: 17
Re: 80% xp comes from treasure? « Reply #11 on Oct 10, 2011, 2:42pm »
Delta has a nice post up about treasure, but I think it misses the mark just a little bit as it focuses on the random encounter tables and not on the dungeon stocking rules.
Let's break it down. The dungeon level was suppose to take PC's of similar level, dungeon level 1 for 1st level, dungeon level 2 for 2nd etc. In a mega-dungeon this comprises the "campaign" so we need enough XP on level one to get the PC's prepared for level two!
Level 1 take 5 PC's. They will need roughly 15000-25000xp to prepare for level 2. 100 rooms (taking castle of the arch-magi as our prototypical mega-dungeon).
A We will place two treasures. (1) The first of which is the contents of a small goblin tribe. 150 goblins (45 males). Based on treasure type it's about 3000gp worth of gold/magic items. 25 of the males will be in the lair, the other 20 will be in surrounding chambers or out scouting. treasure (2) will be a hidden gem in an empty room discoverable through detect magic, find treasure, or a careful search of the room worth 5000gp.
B[ now it says that 33% of the rooms should be inhabited by monsters, so that's 30 more room other than the goblins. Let's assume all 1HD creatures of an average # being 4, so 400xp multiplied by 30 = 12,000xp from monsters slain plus 4,500xp from the goblins.
Total monster XP 16,500 (fear not if you think this is high, more explanation on this later)
TREASURE 50% of the room will have treasure. On a 1st level dungeon the average treasure will be 35gp with a 5% chance for a magic item. There are then about 2.5 magic items (not counting the goblin stash) in the first level of the dungeon. This might be a 250xp potion or a sword +2 (2000xp) so lets just say 2.5 magic items of average value of 1000xp/gp each so 2,500xp from magic items.
total treasure from goblins 3000gp and the 5000gp gem+4250 from random gold and magic items = 12,250gp
Total xp on level 1 of the mega-dungeon is 28,750 if totally cleared.
Now, about those monsters. A group of 5 PC's is never, ever (baring some really great role-playing, charming of the chieftain, illusionary dragon etc) going to defeat a goblin tribe alone. Since this is old-school d&d lets assume that in addition to the 5 PCs, we have 15 hirelings and swordsmen. These hirelings and swordsmen take an equal share of combat xp from the party.
16,250/20 adventurers = 812xp for each of the PC's from monster kills. But the PC's determine who gets the gold Let's give each man at arms a monthly salary per day (rules say a dungeon expidition is 1 week) so 5gpx7 = 35gp times 15 men. The players only loose out on 525 gp in payment. Let's double this number for a job well done and NPC morale. 1000gp for the 15, more than a years wages for a weeks work!
This leaves 11,250gp divided by 5 PC's or 2,250gp/xp.
monster xp: 812 (36% of xp) treasure xp: 2,250 (64% of xp)
On a total clear, by awesome players, everyone will be 2nd level even the magic users and ready for the dungeon level 2 (more likely is a partial clear of level 1 and some forays into level 2 before finishing level 1 fully).
FINAL THOUGHTS I think I skimped a little bit on magic items and didn't even bother rolling for gems, which would raise the treasure xp up a fair bit (perhaps even up to the 80%). What raising the number of monsters does however, is raise xp....yes, but also raises difficulty level. Really anything more than 36% xp from monsters makes for an almost impossible dungeon difficulty level. At 20% monsters, perhaps a group of PC's could do it with little to no hireling help, anything more requires a small army.
I must protest bitterly that my aircraft still has not been painted red.
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Re: 80% xp comes from treasure? « Reply #12 on Oct 11, 2011, 1:52pm »
Intersting Coop, nice work. I agree that both the lair and non lair treasure tables can be taken into account together as you have done, when doing a btb anaylisis. Assuming 1 HD average for the Level one, non lair monsters is low though. Going to the book stocking chart "Monster Determination and Level of Monster Matrix", HD will vary considerably and should average a good bit higher than the 1 HD you have assumed at level 1; at least two or three times as much.
In reality my sense of it is that these were designed as seperate treasure systems, one used by Gygax, the other by Arneson. Meaning I think the lair treasures were basically an Arneson thing for random lairs, while the "Distribution of Treasure" and dungeon stocking rates were how Gygax generally did things (certainly those aren't the FFC stocking rates). So looking at each system seperately, as Delta did, also has its merits.
Re: 80% xp comes from treasure? « Reply #13 on Oct 11, 2011, 2:28pm »
Definitely some interesting stuff here. One thing I've noticed is that the charts can be really swingy, especially if (as Delta points out) jewelry is involved. For example, I recently stocked a small 14-room area on the first level of a dungeon using the charts in Vol. 3. I got jewelry results several times, for a total of 22,000gp!
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