In which Gronan muses about how D&D has changed

Yeah, both had contact with alien civilizations, advanced tech, etc. While Gygax had players going to Barsoom, Arneson & Hargrave were, IMO, cut from the same gonzo cloth. I think if you could have put Arneson and Hargrave together and stirred in a good writer proof reader you could have seen some awesome stuff. I also wonder what would have happened if Arneson & Gygax had been closer in age and Arneson had had the cash to go in 50-50 with Gygax to start with. Then stir in a referee and an editor and add Hargrave later. Two or Three versions of OD&D and 15-20 supplements and instead of calling it AD&D, calling it TD&D with the T for Tournament and OD&D never going out of print.

Sorry if that offends you, but I have always hated that Advanced tag - when it was not advanced but a step backward from the original game and the reason that the original game went OOP. OD&D is superior in every respect to AD&D in every way that matters.

You DO realize that many people simply look at them as being the same game, don't you?

I am very aware of that, and am completely baffled that anyone could think that. IMO it is nonsense. YMMV. Of course I do not use any of the supplements beyond a few house rules. In OD&D without Greyhawk, there is a +1 to each hit die for Con of 15 or more and a -1 for a Con of 6 or less. Dex above 12 +1 with any missile and Dex under 9 -1 with any missile. Compare just that one thing between OD&D and AD&D - Bonuses and Penalties due to the ability scores, they are enormously different. The differences are major for just that one thing and that is only one of dozens of things that are different. Essentially the same, not on your tintype. Even if you used everything in all the supplements, - remember all of that stuff is clearly optional - that still only gets you about 60-70% of the way to AD&D and if you use all of that stuff it slows the game down tremendously. AD&D which I have played runs much slower than OD&D - nope not the same game at all.

But in play, you roll to hit and add a bonus that is written on your character sheet. OD&D has +1, AD&D has +2 or +3 perhaps. Playing the game is the same.
Yes there are other differences, some more noticeable than that, but I don't see too much difference between AD&D and OD&D with supplements.
With either you are free to pick and choose which rules you ignore. Weapon vs AC? Speed factors? Never used them.

I respectfully disagree, IMO playing the game is not even remotely the same. In one you are completely free to do virtually anything you want and in the other there are a lot of things that limit both the DM and the players. If I omit all the rules that I don't like or don't want to use - then I should just play OD&D to begin with. Have you looked at the difference in the number of pages between the two games? It would take a lot of time to go through AD&D and alter with pencil every table to eliminate all those bonsues and penalties and lightly mark all the items that are omitted and then you have to sell that to the players that we are going to play AD&D but 90% of it is omitted.

It's a matter of scale and context. If you are thinking of the games on the large scale, clearly AD&D and OD&D are the same game, with house rules that make them play differently in minor ways. All the non-numeric parts are almost identical, with small-scale exceptions (elves can't be raised from the dead in AD&D.)

When looking at the games on the small scale, they become enormously different. In other words, if I'm just talking about D&D variations and retro-clones, I don't consider AD&D to be the same game at all, and I even turn a wary eye to the post-Holmes Basic versions; if I'm talking about fantasy games or even RPGs in general, tOD&D and AD&D are identical.



You may have missed Perilous Dreamer's comment that there are only three OD&D bonuses, when not using Greyhawk: missile bonus, hp bonus, reaction bonus. And the first two are pretty limited. And I'm struggling to think of non-ability bonuses in the LBBs. There are some percentile bonuses for the evasion rules, and bonuses from magic, but I don't remember seeing any codified bonuses or penalties for combat situations (attack from behind, darkness penalties, etc.) Bonuses seem to be impromptu for the most part, and few and far between.

Greyhawk and AD&D are much closer in the way they handle bonuses than OD&D and AD&D.

Now, trying to tie this all back into the original topic: I think impromptu bonuses versus codified bonuses is just another example of the DIY vs. official support split in the way the game changed. Just as in the past you played in the DM's world, you played in the DM's ideas about who had the advantage in a situation, so you got a +/- 1 or 2 as the DM saw fit, and really not much else. But that changed to playing in an official setting, with official rules, and thus the DM becomes not someone with a good idea, but someone willing to be tricked into mastering all the minutiae of both the setting and the rules.

Yes, that is true and that is why I don't use that part of it. Although my own latest version of Paladins is pretty high powered, but I have yet to get to play test them and haven't had time to revisit them but I know they have to be toned down.

Okay, agreed.

Dungeons & Dragons is a genus. OD&D and AD&D are different species, but they can still interbreed.

Hmm...

That's LORD Grumpy to you, Squire Sparky. ;D

Rob Kuntz definitely had a stronghold.
Ernie Gygax I'm about 90% sure did as well.
I'm not sure about Don Kaye.

Terry Kuntz, Bill Corey, Tom Champeny... may or may not have, I don't recall.

Me, my brother, Tim Wilson, Bob Dale, Mary Dale, I'm fairly certain never had a stronghold. I was saving up for one, but I moved to Minneapolis in 1973, shortly after reaching 9th level.

And yes, we played a TON of other games. Saturdays were miniatures battles, and sometimes over at Gary's we'd play Boot Hill or Dungeon or other things instead of D&D. I remember playing Dungeon on Dave McGarry's original hand-drawn board.

You know, DUNGEON was the perfect "gateway game" to D&D...