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Apocalypse in D&D? « Thread Started on May 13, 2010, 10:45pm »
I have an assignment to write about why the apocalypse is essential to D&D for the Escapist, which is chock-full of old-school goodness these days.
When I wrote the related piece for Goodman's Forgotten Heroes: Fang, Fist, and Song that helped land me this gig, I got some facts wrong that y'all would have surely helped me spot if I'd posted them sooner. So this time I want to get feedback before the fact.
I'll be in an exploratory stage for a little while yet, but here are some of the things I think I'll want to talk about:
- Evidence of post-apocalyptic remnants in core D&D texts. The example I find most striking is the pipe organ in Temple of the Frog, and I'll probably touch on the Wilderlands' history as well, but pointers to other examples would be most welcome.
- Books in the AD&D Appendix N reading list that are actually post-apocalyptic SF. The examples off the top of my head are Margaret St. Clair's Sign of the Labrys (bomb shelter), Fred Saberhagen's Empire of the East (is it a tank in the basement at the end?), and Sterling Lanier's Hiero's Journey (after-the-bomb giant animals and fungi with psionics), but it'd be good to see if I've got those right and haven't missed other obvious examples
- General philosophizing about why the apocalypse is useful for D&D tropes: ancient ruins full of mystery and artifacts no one today can create; the medieval idea of a Golden Age; a world where there are massive cities, castles, etc. but the Fall has wiped away the stultifying regime of civilization
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Re: Apocalypse in D&D? « Reply #1 on May 14, 2010, 10:03am »
Don't forget it explains why all that gold and silver is lying around! Plus, "Time Immemorial" is a good place to bury plot holes and background inconsistencies. Gives the "Mad Wizards" a break!
Any fool of a DM can kill his players, it's as easy as "Rocks fall, everybody dies". The Art lies in giving them the opportunity to kill themselves, in as entertaining a manner as possible.
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Re: Apocalypse in D&D? « Reply #2 on May 14, 2010, 11:40am »
- I think it depends which D&D guru is doing the writing, but Holmes D&D suggests ancient high tech civilizations several times. I'm sure that had a big influence.
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Re: Apocalypse in D&D? « Reply #3 on May 14, 2010, 12:22pm »
Good point, jcstephens - the abundance of coinage suggests past glories as much as magic items do!
aldarron, I just skimmed through Holmes' Basic and didn't see any references to ancient civilizations (though I did turn up some cool example character names). It's quite possible I missed it - do you remember in what context you saw those?
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Re: Apocalypse in D&D? « Reply #4 on May 14, 2010, 2:02pm »
Ralph Bakshi's Wizards came out in 1977; a little late to have influenced OD&D, but certainly what came after. More likely they were all drinking from the same wells.
More recently, several anime series have used the 'Fantasy post-apocalypse" theme, for example "Ruin Explorers", which has as its background a magical war a few centuries earlier, and now small groups of (usually cash-strapped) adventurers try to salvage the gold and magic from the ruined dungeons of the earlier civilization.
(There was some noise a number of years back about someone making a RPG based on the series, and others like it. Haven't heard anything lately, though.)
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Re: Apocalypse in D&D? « Reply #5 on May 14, 2010, 3:53pm »
Since “apocalypse” simply means “revelation,” I don’t think that is the word you are looking for. Even if you use it to mean “the end of time” as it is sometimes used, then it would be impossible to speak of a “post-apocalyptic” time. Perhaps “cataclysm” would be a better choice?
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Re: Apocalypse in D&D? « Reply #7 on May 14, 2010, 5:48pm »
The apocalypse terminology is handed down to me by the editors, though like bluskreem says I habitually use it in the sense that science fiction readers do. As Wikipedia says, "Apocalyptic fiction is a sub-genre of science fiction that is concerned with the end of civilization either through nuclear war, plague, or some other general disaster. Post-apocalyptic fiction is set in a world or civilization after such a disaster. The time frame may be immediately after the catastrophe, focusing on the travails or psychology of survivors, or considerably later, often including the theme that the existence of pre-catastrophe civilization has been forgotten (or mythologized)."
It's that latter theme - in which pre-catastrophe artifacts are objects of wonderment and power - that is most prevalent in D&D, and maybe most related to the meaning of revelation you mention, Michael.
Some Appendix N literary sources: - Vance's Dying Earth is probably the major source of the idea of adventurers in a world that is unimaginably ancient and littered with the fantastic remnants of the distant past
- Moorcock's Hawkmoor books are set in a post-cataclysmic future Europe
The quote from Temple of the Frog is:
"Room 5: This is where the great wind pipe organ of the Temple is located. It fills the room with its parts... This organ is the only musical instrument of its kind still in existence and being so, is worth several hundred thousand in gold. It also weighs about ten tons and will fill a cargo ship (or twenty carts) easily. Any person so attempting to take apart or put this instrument back together will either have to find the only priest who knows how to, or decipher the cryptic manual on artifacts found amongst the volumes in the Library."
- Evidence of post-apocalyptic remnants in core D&D texts. The example I find most striking is the pipe organ in Temple of the Frog, and I'll probably touch on the Wilderlands' history as well, but pointers to other examples would be most welcome.
- Books in the AD&D Appendix N reading list that are actually post-apocalyptic SF. The examples off the top of my head are Margaret St. Clair's Sign of the Labrys (bomb shelter), Fred Saberhagen's Empire of the East (is it a tank in the basement at the end?), and Sterling Lanier's Hiero's Journey (after-the-bomb giant animals and fungi with psionics), but it'd be good to see if I've got those right and haven't missed other obvious examples
FWIW, someone asked EGG in the 90's or 00's (I forget which) if there was any fiction written since '77 he would add to Appendix N. He said "Not really" but conceded that Piers Anthony's Apprentice Adept series may have been added.
If you have not read it, it's weird and definitely not "classic fantasy." There's a "sci-fi" world and a "magic" world which are near-perfect "but magic/sci-fi" mirrors of each other, with every native-born person having a twin in the other world, and the main character bounces back and forth between them (after his magic-twin is killed out of proper time) trying to solve his problems in each.
Post-apocalyptic? Not in any classical sense, but then the Apprentice Adept series does not fit easily into any genre. There is a regular analysis though of "loss" - on the sci-fi world of Proton the protagonist loses his magic, and on the magic world of Phase he loses his access to sci-fi technology.
- General philosophizing about why the apocalypse is useful for D&D tropes: ancient ruins full of mystery and artifacts no one today can create; the medieval idea of a Golden Age; a world where there are massive cities, castles, etc. but the Fall has wiped away the stultifying regime of civilization
Yep. Those are all useful. Another point though is raised by the lifespan of Dwarves, Elves and the like. Human history only goes back a couple thousand years, but Elves live nearly half that long. What did Elven people do just ten Elven generations ago? Any sort of history that incorporates the rise and fall of Elven kingdoms would have to be tens of thousands of years long.
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Re: Apocalypse in D&D? « Reply #9 on May 14, 2010, 9:10pm »
Professor M.A.R Barker's entire Empire of the Petal Throne is an "ancient" world built upon the ruins of a "future" world, though I believe he was developing it even before D&D came to his attention.
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Re: Apocalypse in D&D? « Reply #10 on May 14, 2010, 9:40pm »
Holmes, page 41. "...located on the ruins of a much older city ..." and further down "...the foundations of the older, pre human city..."
There's similar language in his Fantasy Role Playing Games book "Perhaps an ancient magic race created a city or a temple which subsequent ages have buried. The original inhabitants have all died or migrated off, although thier magic spells remain in full force." page 43
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Re: Apocalypse in D&D? « Reply #11 on May 24, 2010, 6:16am »
Thanks for the tip, aldarron!
The other strain, of course, is of an apocalyptic battle of evermore that ends the current fantasy world and ushers in a new one. Stormbringer, p. 215: "The earth dissolved--yet still the Lords of the Higher Worlds battled over it... The victors would have the privilege of re-forming the earth."
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Re: Apocalypse in D&D? « Reply #12 on Jun 9, 2010, 11:49pm »
Many thanks to everyone who provided suggestions in this thread (and the related one on the Wilderlands' apocalypse)! The piece will be in Tuesday's Escapist - I'll post a link to it here when it comes out, and put a pointer to this thread in the comments there to give credit where credit is due.
Check out the comments in the Escapist forum, where Ken St. Andre has been moved to de-lurk in order to talk about the apocalypses in Tunnels & Trolls! That is so cool I don't know what to do with myself.
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