I thought these were actually pretty good. Since we're supposedly the experts, comments?
I didn't look at much of the dungeon but I have to say I think this is a really good idea. I don't know how much support for it there will be (will people pay? Is 3e better than Oe/1e or 4e from a commercial viewpoint? who knows?) but it seems to me to be a very plausible, and fun, commercial project. I wish (a) I'd thought of it and (b) I had the free time to do something like that in the first place.
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 309 Location: The Mighty City of Jakalla Karma: 5
Re: The Ten Assumptions of Dungeon Design « Reply #1 on Mar 15, 2009, 8:30am »
Isn't this that Monte Cook thing?
James Maliszewski of GROGNARDIA had been blogging about this, as had other people. I think the general consensus was that Mr. Monte was just trying to jump into the Old School bandwagon and make a few extra bucks...
The project looks interesting but the whole "membership" angle leaves a sour taste in my mind. We have folks who have been making Megadungeons for quite some time and make the fruits of their work available for free at their websites or blogs.
I really can't see how Dungeonday.com will really be any better and justify shelling over 100$ per year, not counting the cost of printing the stuff.
Edit: The page also paints a pretty picture of "Whether you're playing out of the little white box, the Basic Set, 1st Edition, 2nd Edition, 3rd Edition (or 3.5), or 4th edition, dungeons come into the game" but the fact remains it is written for 3rd Ed.
Joined: Dec 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 813 Location: The Echo Chamber Karma: 24
Re: The Ten Assumptions of Dungeon Design « Reply #2 on Mar 15, 2009, 10:56am »
Monte Cook was kind enough to give me a free month's subscription to Dungeonaday.com. I'll be reviewing it more formally later, but, after the first few days of content, I can safely say a few things:
1. The website is very well done and (mostly) intuitive to use.
2. The dungeon itself is indeed very old school in its (general) conception.
3. I don't think it'd be hard to use the dungeon with a pre-WotC edition of the game.
4. Reading the 3e mechanical bits, now I remember why I ran screaming from it into the arms of OD&D again.
5. I have a hard time imagining this, at $10/month ($7 if you subscribe early), being a viable business model, both because of the way the information is being parceled out, and because, even with the ability to print off sections in PDF form, there's no physical product at the end of it that you can take and read and use at your game table.
Overall, I think idea behind it sounds more brilliant than it is. It's possible I'm mistaken and there are just tons of people out there willing to shell out money for a piecemeal dungeon. If so, kudos to Monte for coming up with this idea.
Overall, I think idea behind it sounds more brilliant than it is. It's possible I'm mistaken and there are just tons of people out there willing to shell out money for a piecemeal dungeon. If so, kudos to Monte for coming up with this idea.
I haven't seen this, and certainly have nowhere near the knowledge you have of it since you have a (temporary) subscription, but a couple of thoughts pop immediately into my head:
1. I've bought PDF copies of books before (with no actual physical thing at the end of my purchase) and am not sure that this sounds that much different.
2. Unless a DM waits until the dungeon is "finished" won't he have to either steer his players into certain regions of the dungeon or hope to be lucky enough that they only venture into parts which are complete? Or, perhaps I don't understand the concept of what Monte is up to.
3. Monte Cook has some neat ideas, but his materials always seem so wordy to me. I'd rather trim out about 2/3 of the text (and maybe it's more of a 3E effect than Monte himself) and stick with "bare bones" materials. While I suppose wordy products are a good buy to many, I find them somewhat tiring. For example, compare Ptolus to the City-State of the Invincible Overlord -- Ptolus is a lot more clever but I'd rather run CSIO for my campaigns.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 293 Karma: 21
Re: The Ten Assumptions of Dungeon Design « Reply #4 on Mar 15, 2009, 12:23pm »
Most of this was right on point, except #9, which was trivial compared to the others. I'd suggest replacing #9 with the most important point about megadungeon design, which he missed: a megadungeon is interesting because it challenges the skill of the players, not the numbers on their character sheets. It presents mental challenges other than just which feats to use in combat. I could come up with a couple of others that I think trump his particular 10 ... but in general it's a good summary.
I don't have a problem with him jumping on the bandwagon ... once you're on the bandwagon, you're on the bandwagon.
I'd appreciate a review sooner than later. While I doubt that I join up, if I do so it would be by the end of March to get the special deal.
I'll post it to my blog well before the end of the month. I want to give Dungeonaday.com a fair shake, though, since it's not even been a month since its release.
Quote:
1. I've bought PDF copies of books before (with no actual physical thing at the end of my purchase) and am not sure that this sounds that much different.
It is in the sense that there's not a single PDF that incorporates everything on the site. So, there's a PDF of the level 1 map, PDFs of each room on that level, PDFs of new items, etc. It's very unwieldy, at least at present. Maybe there will be a compilation once he finishes a level, I don't know.
Quote:
2. Unless a DM waits until the dungeon is "finished" won't he have to either steer his players into certain regions of the dungeon or hope to be lucky enough that they only venture into parts which are complete? Or, perhaps I don't understand the concept of what Monte is up to.
No, you understand the concept correctly. This is as much of a problem as you wish to make it, in my opinion. In my experience, old school megadungeon campaigns proceed slowly, so it's not hard to "keep up" with the pace of releases. Alternately, there's always the Greyhawk Construction Company to bar the way
Quote:
3. Monte Cook has some neat ideas, but his materials always seem so wordy to me. I'd rather trim out about 2/3 of the text (and maybe it's more of a 3E effect than Monte himself) and stick with "bare bones" materials. While I suppose wordy products are a good buy to many, I find them somewhat tiring. For example, compare Ptolus to the City-State of the Invincible Overlord -- Ptolus is a lot more clever but I'd rather run CSIO for my campaigns.
I think this is the biggest issue from my perspective. There's a lot of verbiage expended on descriptions, explanations, and mechanical development that are just useless to me. There are lots of great ideas in this dungeon, no question, but, considering the price, I'm not sure it's worth it for old schoolers who prefer a more minimalist approach.
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,330 Location: New Hope, MN Karma: 93
Re: The Ten Assumptions of Dungeon Design « Reply #6 on Mar 15, 2009, 9:30pm »
His points were fine, and nicely summarized, but in the end nothing that hasn't been discussed in the million pages of Evereaux's theads over on Dragonsfoot and elsewhere, or shown in Fight On!'s very own The Darkness Beneath. Or Under Xylarthen's Tower. Or The Mines of Khunmar. Maybe you see where I'm going with this.
And in the end that's what bothers me about the whole project. I mean, I think it's distinctly non oldskool in spirit to ask someone to subscribe to your megadungeon; I can't immediately think of anything less DIY.
Maybe I'm being unfair, but I've been playing UXT, which was immediately ready to play, has six levels (and is primed for more) and follows all 10 points, for two sessions now, and it was free...
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
Joined: Jun 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 4,676 Location: Near Chicago Karma: 178
Re: The Ten Assumptions of Dungeon Design « Reply #7 on Mar 15, 2009, 9:57pm »
One idea does occur to me -- when I design a one-shot adventure dungeon I try to populate it with a manageable number of somewhat mundane rooms and a couple special and interesting rooms. (An unusual encounter, a puzzle to solve, something like that.) If Monte’s “room a day” concept actually gives an interesting encounter, and if they are essentially geomorphic, then I could simply mine his ideas and put a couple together to make a one-shot dungeon.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,503 Karma: 57
Re: The Ten Assumptions of Dungeon Design « Reply #8 on Mar 16, 2009, 12:16am »
I don't want to sound like I'm jumping on the Monte Cook bandwagon, but I'd like to bring up a few points that have occurred to me:
1) Monte Cook has to eat. Since he doesn't seem to want to work on 4e (and I don't blame him), he's going to stick to what he knows. He has fans; perhaps he can make enough of a living from this. If he does, good for him; it shows a willingness to embrace the new digital economy.
2) Subscriptions are very old school; Judges Guild had their subscription program. This is just digital, as opposed to paper. Monte Cook thus neatly avoids having to charge for postage; he can put that money into a better website.
I haven't been to the site yet (I took a brief glance earlier; I'll probably look at it more tomorrow on my lunch break (where I have a faster connection than here at home.)), but from what I've heard, it's a nice one.
Joined: Oct 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,224 Location: Argentina Karma: 51
Re: The Ten Assumptions of Dungeon Design « Reply #9 on Mar 16, 2009, 6:50am »
Though I didn't like want Monte was doing (primarly for the lack of brevity), I think that there can be a positive aspect of this. Newschoolers that are Monte's fans will be exposed to a "more" old-school approach to gaming. Maybe not 100% or 90% or 80% old-school, but something that shares some aspects of it. That may spark the interest for more and later look into the more authentic old-school stuff.
That´s how I got to OD&D, being 23 years old. I bought Necromancer Games stuff for 3.5. In the boards people talked a lot about 1E and OD&D occasionally. Then C&C appeared and I thought it would be good to try it. I did, liked it and then started to explore the true older editions.
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,330 Location: New Hope, MN Karma: 93
Re: The Ten Assumptions of Dungeon Design « Reply #10 on Mar 16, 2009, 7:49am »
I certainly don't have a problem with Monte Cook doing whatever he wants to do to make money, I'm just not a fan of this particular project. And I have to ask, did JG really have subscriptions for something like this? A parceled-out dungeon at what again, to me, seems like an excessive cost?
Although, as I wrote that it occurred to me that that's probably similar to what people pay for WoWC and the like, so maybe that's where the price point is coming from.
Zulg, you do make a good point about it functioning as a gateway, so to speak; I hadn't thought of it that way. In the end, maybe what's bugging me is, in my look-through of the site, I felt there was a bit of a "we are the experts here", with no acknowledgment of all the work that's been done here and elsewhere around reviving an oldskool/traditional/roots/whatever-you-want-to-call-it outlook on the game.
I mean, maybe Monte is completely clueless about the oldskool Renaissance, but I find that hard to believe...
Joined: Jun 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 537 Karma: 14
Re: The Ten Assumptions of Dungeon Design « Reply #11 on Mar 16, 2009, 3:09pm »
If I were (a) rich (b) a 3.5 DM, (c) running my 3.5 game via forum (I could never use those huge room descriptions at the table), and (d) not supremely creative, you betcha I'd subscribe to this.
But as it is, I don't really have any interest in a non-free 3E dungeon, even if it is really big, ongoing, and possible to regularly chit-chat with the creator (and many other people running it) about the dungeon and suggestions for its future content.
I wouldn't call it a bad project or anything though. It actually looks kinda fun. What would impress the living hell out of me (and possibly make it worth a subscription) is if the site provided graphics and instructions for constructing a likeness of the dungeon from card stock (to make little dungeon visuals like you see in the pictures).
I certainly don't have a problem with Monte Cook doing whatever he wants to do to make money, I'm just not a fan of this particular project. And I have to ask, did JG really have subscriptions for something like this? A parceled-out dungeon at what again, to me, seems like an excessive cost?
Not exactly the same, but a similar concept. What Judges Guild did was to sell you a campaign one chunk at a time. You would get a module or a wilderness map or a town or something like that each month, along with a newsletter.
The Wilderlands campaign that you could buy as a huge boxed set was orignally delivered in small parts via a monthly subscription. There were 18 campaign maps total, mostly divided up into a couple maps per instatllment. Each map came with a little book of possible encounters.
So the general concept isn't new, but the electronic aspect is a new twist.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
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