Topic: General Information about EPT (Read 2,457 times)
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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General Information about EPT « Thread Started on Nov 21, 2007, 12:14pm »
I grabbed some information from Wikipedia for anyone who has heard about Empire of the Petal Throne, but isn't quit sure what it is....
The world of Tékumel, Nu Ophiuchi d (a.k.a. Sinistra d), was first settled by humans exploring the galaxy about 60,000 years in the future, along with several other alien species. Their extensive terraforming of the inhospitable environment, including changing the planet's orbit and rotation rate to create a 365.25-day year, disrupted local ecologies and banished most of the local flora and fauna (including some intelligent species) to small reservations in the corners of their own world, resulting in a golden age of technology and prosperity for humankind and its allies. Tékumel became a resort world, where the wealthy from a thousand other stars could while away their time next to its warm seas.
Suddenly, and for reasons unknown, Tékumel and its star system (Tékumel's two moons, Gayél and Káshi, its sun, Tuléng, and four other planets, Ülétl, Riruchél, Shíchel, and Zirúna) was cast out of our reality into a "pocket dimension" (known as a béthorm in Tsolyáni), in which there were no other star systems. One hypothesis is that this isolation happened through hostile action on the part of an unknown party or group. Another is that the cosmic cataclysm was due to over-use of a faster than light drive which warped the fabric of space. No one knows, but the inhabitants of Tékumel, both human, native, and representatives of the other starfaring races, were now isolated and alone.
Severed from vital interplanetary trade routes (Tékumel is a world very poor in heavy metals) and in the midst of a massive gravitic upheaval due to the lines of gravitational force between the stars being suddenly cut, civilization was thrown into chaos. The intelligent native species, the Hlüss and the Ssú, broke free from their reservations and wars as destructive as the massive geographic changes ravaged the planet. Several other significant changes took place due to the crisis: mankind discovered it could now tap into ultraplanar energies that were seen as magical forces, the stars were gone from the sky, dimensional nexi were uncovered and pacts with "demons" (inhabitants of dimensions near in n-dimensional space to Tékumel's pocket dimension) were made and a complex pantheon of "Gods" (powerful extra-dimensional or multi-dimensional alien beings) discovered. Science began to stagnate until ultimately knowledge became grounded in traditions handed down from generations long ago, the belief that the universe was ultimately understandable slowly faded, and a Time of Darkness descended over the planet.
Much of Barker's writing concerns a time approximately 50,000 years after Tékumel has entered its pocket dimension. Five vast tradition-oriented civilizations occupy a large portion of the northern continent. These five human empires, along with various non-human allies who are descended from other star faring races, vie to control resources, including other planar "magical powers" and ancient technology, as they vie for survival and supremacy among themselves as well as hostile and other non-human races.
Much of the gaming materials and other writings focus particularly on these Five Empires which control much of the world's northern continent (only about an eighth of the planet's surface has published maps).
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: General Information about EPT « Reply #1 on Nov 21, 2007, 12:14pm »
Tsolyáni is one of several languages spoken on the world of Tékumel, and was the first conlang published as part of a role-playing game. It is inspired by Urdu, Pushtu and Mayan, the latter influence can be seen in the inclusion of the sounds hl /ɬ/ and tl /tɬ/.
As expected, Barker has put great effort into the languages of Tékumel. Although Tsolyáni is the only Tekumeláni language that has had a full grammar book, dictionary, pronunciation tapes (now on CD) and a primer, publicly released, it is not the only language for this world that Barker has developed.
Also available are grammar guides for the Yán Koryáni and Livyáni languages which are spoken in two other of the "Five Empires" of the known parts of Tékumel, as well as grammar books for Engsvanyáli and Sunúz. These two languages are now extinct, dead languages. Engsvanyáli is of use as it is the root language for Tsolyáni and many of the other currently spoken languages of the known parts of Tékumel. Sunúz is of interest because, although it is obscure, it is quite useful for sorcerous purposes. For instance, Sunúz contains terms to describe movement in a six dimensional multi-planar space, something of use to beings who visit the other planar realms where "demons" live.
Barker has also published extensively on scripts for other languages of Tékumel.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: General Information about EPT « Reply #2 on Nov 21, 2007, 12:15pm »
Barker was a Professor of Urdu and South Asian Studies at the University of Minnesota during the period when David Arneson, Gary Gygax and a handful of others were developing the first role-playing games in Minneapolis and Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. Barker tapped into this tradition to explore and develop the Tékumel setting. His "Thursday Night Groups" were some of the first roleplaying sessions anywhere and provided what was, at the time, a unique, week-by-week development of the setting.
In 1975, Tactical Studies Rules, Inc., the publishers of Dungeons & Dragons, published the Tékumel fantasy setting as a standalone game under the title of The Empire of the Petal Throne (a synonym for the Tsolyáni Empire). It brought a level of detail and quality to the campaign setting which had previously been unknown in the RPG industry, and could be considered a turning point away from the tactical roots of RPGs. The game was the subject of articles in early issues of Dragon Magazine, but factors including inconsistent support from TSR led to its decline in popularity. Over the subsequent thirty years several new games based on the Tékumel setting were published, but to date none have met with commercial success. While published as fantasy, this edition of the game is sometimes classified as science fantasy and erroneously as science fiction.
The most recent of these is Tékumel: Empire of the Petal Throne and was published by Guardians Of Order (GOO).
In 1984, DAW Books published Barker's Tékumel novel The Man of Gold. This was followed by Flamesong in 1985. In 2003, Zottola Publishing published three additional novels: Prince of Skulls, Lords of Tsámra, and A Death of Kings. In 2004 Zottola Publishing produced the two-volume set Mitlanyál, which deals with the Tsolyáni pantheon and provides much background regarding the Tsolyáni culture. All Zottola Publishing products are available from Amazon.com.
The order of the novels is as follows:
The Man of Gold Flamesong Lords of Tsámra Prince of Skulls A Death of Kings Note that they were published out of order.
There have been a wide variety of materials of all sorts published over the years to further details this world. As well as the language materials, these include Deeds of the Ever Glorious —a History of the Tsolyani Legions, The Tékumel Bestiary, and The Book of Ebon Bindings, a guide to the demonic beings that are known to the Tsolyáni, and a six volume series of booklets that details the armies of each of the Five Empires as well as surrounding states and the vast lands of the reptilian Shén. There have also been various wargames rules as well as small scale metal miniatures to represent the various races and legions.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Re: General Information about EPT « Reply #3 on Dec 4, 2007, 1:04am »
The best URL relating to matters Tekumelyani (relating to Tekumel) is www.tekumel. com . Don't forget to visit the section entitled The Blue Room Archives, which contains many meaty contributions from an old discussion group.
Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 245 Location: Behind the Orange Curtain Karma: 10
Re: General Information about EPT « Reply #5 on Jan 3, 2008, 2:32pm »
Part of the 'deep background' of the story is that about 110,000 years ago on Earth, WWIII wiped out the civilizations of much of the northern hemisphere. When civilization rebuilt itself, it derived from south and central America, and from central and south Asia; hence the distince Indian/Mayan feel to the art, language, and culture. Among the human races, blue eyes are a rare and much-feared genetic defect.
There's an index for Man of Gold, Flamesong, the Sourcebook and Deeds of the Ever Glorious.
Said the Mad Indexer,
Krista
Much snapping of fingers for the Mad Indexer! Well done, good resources (both the works and each index). Deeds is great for setting flavor, and IMO essential if your campaign involves the military in any way. And since legions are often sponsored by temples or nobles, they're as much a part of regional politics and schemes as anything else is.
Ah! A good question! Unless I am mistaken, the cover for EPT showing Lady Yilrana and General Bazhan was done by Prof. Barker. Was there another cover you had in mind?
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I checked with Prof. Barker on this same question some time ago. Chlen-hide is harder than bronze and softer than iron but what does it look like when smashed with a blunt object? Does it buckle/dent like metal or split/fragment/shatter?
It tends to shatter or break, rather than buckle or dent. That having been said, I am sure there are Chlen-hide tanners who have developed a hard but relatively malleable kind of material that deforms instead. It's not typical, however.
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Armour is said to 'project fantastically in curious designs'
Was Barker aware that these designs would only act to guide wayward weapons down onto the skull or shoulders of the wearer of such armour. The purpose of sheet armour being to turn a telling blow into a glancing one not to catch the weight of inaccurate blows. In many illustrations of Tsolyani soldiers we see similarly impractical (ceremonial) weapons used in fighting. Reading Gygax' article on polearms in Unearthed Arcana we learn that each curve of blade and prong evolved for a precise purpose. Was Barker attracted to wavy blades and polearms for aesthetic reasons?
I can easily see what you are asking about. However, you're looking at this from within the relatively narrow confines of Western European military development. Prof. Barker in his travels and studies in Asia was exposed to a much wider variety of weapons, weapon styles and armor. As a result, he became aware of the utility and value of arms and armor that would appear impractical or fanciful by Western standards. It was this experience that informed his design of Tekumel's arms and armor.
Within the context of the world, warfare in the Five Empires is fairly ritualized, and in combination with the unique qualities of Chlen-hide, makes such arms and armor not only practical but of social value within the context of the cultures Tsolyanu and elsewhere. Does that help? I hope so.
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There is a rumour that horses may survive on a zoological preserve on some island in Tekumel. On steedless Tekumel that could lead to some very rewarding adventures. Is there any evidence that Barker made this rumour true in his own campaign?
Of course! Prof. Barker mentions the possible existence of not only horses, but also the Bazhaq and the Ngekka - riding beasts from other star systems. The Bazhaq are the riding beasts of the tribes of Tane. far to the west of Mu'ugalavya. Horses and the Ngekka are on the far side of the planet. That having been said, I think you're missing the point of riding beasts within the context of Tekumel - conceptually, "riding animals" are something of a chimaera: nobody in the Five Empires would think "hey, if only we had cavalry!" as a reasonable idea. Riding horses, gunpowder, electricity, steam power, inherent equality of all sentient beings, etc. - all of these things represent ideas that would not occur to someone on Tekumel in the area of the Five Empires. For the adventure to make sense, you would first have to have someone who would be a "true believer" in something that was either trivial or considered insane by others. I'm not saying such an adventure could never happen or would be a bad idea, just that there are some cultural barriers that Americans can and do miss in their thinking. Do you see what I mean?
(I moved this post over the "General Information about EPT" since it was not directly related to helping referees who have considered running EPT but have not yet done so...)
Ah! A good question! Unless I am mistaken, the cover for EPT showing Lady Yilrana and General Bazhan was done by Prof. Barker. Was there another cover you had in mind?
When I made a box to hold my Tekumel material it was the image I used for the lid so well done Prof. Barker. I find the colouring very attractive and it is interesting to note that Helen Doward is prominently acknowledged as responsible for this.
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you're looking at this from within the relatively narrow confines of Western European military development. Prof. Barker in his travels and studies in Asia was exposed to a much wider variety of weapons, weapon styles and armor.
With respect you don't know what I know about weaponry. In for example Sir Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword we don't see weapons remotely as fanciful as those in the Tekumel illustrations and with good reason since weapons are not artworks but evolve slowly for highly practical reasons.
I do think that the artists impressions of exotic and alien weaponry suit Tekumel and that if Barker as DM declared the weapons were highly functional *on Tekumel* I would as a player simply say, "awesome!". However if a player of mine rationally argued that he was going to use a weapon catching device, a tiny grappling hook on a short rope because of the ease with which he could tangle it on the exotic prongs of the weapons I could only congratulate him.
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Horses and the Ngekka are on the far side of the planet. That having been said, I think you're missing the point of riding beasts within the context of Tekumel - conceptually, "riding animals" are something of a chimaera: nobody in the Five Empires would think "hey, if only we had cavalry!" as a reasonable idea. ... For the adventure to make sense, you would first have to have someone who would be a "true believer" in something that was either trivial or considered insane by others. I'm not saying such an adventure could never happen or would be a bad idea, just that there are some cultural barriers that Americans can and do miss in their thinking.
Yes some Americans can be seem culturally isolated but I am Irish.
I have to say you completely jumped the gun as to what I meant by such an adventure. I think one reason people are diffident about asking questions of someone knowledgable in one area is the risk that they get cast as a slack jawed dimwit.
Since the horses themselves made it to Tekumel it is conceivable that they were used as steeds at some point on Tekumel and that if only as legend (as for the purported metal cars of the Dragon Warriors) that documentation or artworks might survive in a sparse collection of hints which conveyed from the mouth of a mad theorist, as you say could provide for an adventure no more or less plausible than a more traditional adventure for an artifact deep in the earth.
As to the reward, a "cavalry" was far from my mind. Just think of the advantage of increasing long distance travel speed threefold *relative to everyone else*, and the advantage of being able to avoid dangerous encounters by simply speeding away. The sensible way for adventurers to use horses would be secretly, and to convert them to draft animals when approaching towns since without the legends and hints, as you say, it would not occur to others how else a horse might be employed.
With respect you don't know what I know about weaponry. In for example Sir Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword we don't see weapons remotely as fanciful as those in the Tekumel illustrations and with good reason since weapons are not artworks but evolve slowly for highly practical reasons.
Thank you for the clarification! Have you seen Stone's A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor? That has a variety of examples that might be illustrative. What I've passed along is pretty much what Prof. Barker has said to us when we've asked about it, and there are several medievalists and at least one archaeologist who have gamed with him. (Me, I'm just a sociologist - I look at how people interact in societies.)
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I do think that the artists impressions of exotic and alien weaponry suit Tekumel and that if Barker as DM declared the weapons were highly functional *on Tekumel* I would as a player simply say, "awesome!". However if a player of mine rationally argued that he was going to use a weapon catching device, a tiny grappling hook on a short rope because of the ease with which he could tangle it on the exotic prongs of the weapons I could only congratulate him.
Bolas are listed as available weapons...
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Yes some Americans can be seem culturally isolated but I am Irish.
I have to say you completely jumped the gun as to what I meant by such an adventure. I think one reason people are diffident about asking questions of someone knowledgable in one area is the risk that they get cast as a slack jawed dimwit.
Touche'! Hit acknowledged! My apologies - it's one of those questions which has come up so very many times in the way I criticised that I assumed yours was much the same. Unfair on my part; let me go back and listen...
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Since the horses themselves made it to Tekumel it is conceivable that they were used as steeds at some point on Tekumel and that if only as legend (as for the purported metal cars of the Dragon Warriors) that documentation or artworks might survive in a sparse collection of hints which conveyed from the mouth of a mad theorist, as you say could provide for an adventure no more or less plausible than a more traditional adventure for an artifact deep in the earth.
See, now THAT is the right and proper way to bring this up - ancient inscriptions, bas-reliefs, references in long-lost (and perhaps recently-found) manuscripts, heck, notations and marginalia on "maps." But the driving question remains - so who would think this was worthwhile? It's a mindset issue - precisely the same reason why the Inca never developed the wheel. If you do not have the conditions to make it worthwhile, it's not something people will think of. Keep in mind that horse collars made a huge difference in haulage, for example - before that, human labor was about as effective. This question does remain one of those "how many Bazhaq can dance on the head of a pin?" questions for Tekumel; the bottom line is "horses and other riding animals are - for meta-gaming purposes - on the periphery. Introducing them changes how the universe operates."
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As to the reward, a "cavalry" was far from my mind. Just think of the advantage of increasing long distance travel speed threefold *relative to everyone else*, and the advantage of being able to avoid dangerous encounters by simply speeding away. The sensible way for adventurers to use horses would be secretly, and to convert them to draft animals when approaching towns since without the legends and hints, as you say, it would not occur to others how else a horse might be employed.
I suppose I could say it's not as simple as that, but the advantage you cite would not really work. Something that provides a real advantage is something that the Imperium would want to control itself; "adventurers" are not as socially disengaged to make such a scheme work easily. Their clans would want to know what to do with these creatures - and the odd arrangements being asked for - the Omnipotent Azure Legion, their temples, various transport clans ALL would want to know what was going on. And SOME of them would work to suppress this new-fangled innovation - and so on and so forth. (This is where being a sociologist is relevant, actually...)
With respect you don't know what I know about weaponry. In for example Sir Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword we don't see weapons remotely as fanciful as those in the Tekumel illustrations and with good reason since weapons are not artworks but evolve slowly for highly practical reasons.
I do think that the artists impressions of exotic and alien weaponry suit Tekumel and that if Barker as DM declared the weapons were highly functional *on Tekumel* I would as a player simply say, "awesome!". However if a player of mine rationally argued that he was going to use a weapon catching device, a tiny grappling hook on a short rope because of the ease with which he could tangle it on the exotic prongs of the weapons I could only congratulate him.
With respect, you don't know what I know about the weaponry hanging on the wall in Phil's dining and living rooms.
There's a lot weirder stuff in his collection then has ever appeared in the Tekumel art, and you can find a lot more like it in both Stone and the Bannerman catalog. Most of it was picked up cheap from the police after riots in Lahore, and after cleaning some of them I can assure you that they were used in combat. (Ugh! I always got the dirty jobs. )
I've also worn all three of his suits of armor (two Western European, 1500s-style and one Mughal) as well as my own Vimuhla armour. Phil had me wear all of them in a series of time trials with the usual actions expected of a player-character. We also tried several bouts of combat with me in the various armours, since I was the only one that fit into all of them. Each requires a very different fighting style, of course, but I felt confident enough to wear my Tekumel armor in several bouts of combat with a very well-trained opponent using medieval armor and weapons. My opponent said afterwards that he thought that it was difficult to land a good solid blow on the Tekumel armour, unlike his own early 1300s period armour.
This was all back some thirty-five years ago, when Phil first started getting letters on this same subject. We thought it would be both instructive and fun to do some experiments, and it certainly was. I have also taken the liberty of attaching (I hope!) a photo of my armour back in the days when I had energy and hair...
(If the attachment didn't work - the file may be too big - it's also on my little blog.)
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