I must protest bitterly that my aircraft still has not been painted red.
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 1,596 Location: Schenectady Karma: 73
Lost Original D&D Manuscript report « Thread Started on May 3, 2012, 9:50am »
Hi all,
As promised, I have begun a series of reports on a lost original (3LBB) D&D manuscript of which I was priveledged to recieve a copy for study. On my blog:
We thought we were crazy, but we had a great time. - Dave Arneson
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
Joined: Jun 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 4,674 Location: Near Chicago Karma: 178
Re: Lost Original D&D Manuscript report « Reply #1 on May 3, 2012, 3:17pm »
Wow. You are awesome!
I used to have a friend who claimed to have something like this (a pre-D&D manuscript), but he's never been able to get a copy into my hands and I'm not sure if I can contact him anymore. Nice to hear you got to see one!
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Re: Lost Original D&D Manuscript report « Reply #2 on May 3, 2012, 7:23pm »
Interesting!
This same guy contacted me after I replied to a post he made at rpg.net around the same time (I say it was the same guy because he told me that exact story in his PM). He posted a few pics he had taken of random pages to the d20 forum and asked if anyone knew what it was.
I went back and looked at those pics, as they're still on his Flickr page, and I think you're right; there's not much text included there, but phrases like "double hits" instead of "double damage" or "2d6 damage" or some such seem very Arnesonian.
Re: Lost Original D&D Manuscript report « Reply #3 on May 3, 2012, 8:00pm »
Wow, that artwork is really extensive. It looks more like a finished product than a draft.
Is there any similar looking art by him from First Fantasy Campaign? I'm surprised he wouldn't have used this art and/or manuscript for First Fantasy Campaign if it was available.
The "Before Setting Out for Fame and Fortune" has a sign pointing towards "Lord Arn". Seems likely a reference to Arneson...
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
Joined: Jun 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 4,674 Location: Near Chicago Karma: 178
Re: Lost Original D&D Manuscript report « Reply #4 on May 3, 2012, 8:12pm »
Wow, that artwork is really extensive. It looks more like a finished product than a draft.
Y'know, the fact that it looks so finished makes me suspect that the manuscript is NOT a pre-OD&D artifact at all.
I can't imagine TSR having artwork as fancy as that and then not making use of it anywhere. OD&D artwork is much more crude and typically line-art in nature, whereas this looks more polished and professional. Looks a lot better than FFC artwork as well.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Y'know, the fact that it looks so finished makes me suspect that the manuscript is NOT a pre-OD&D artifact at all.
I can't imagine TSR having artwork as fancy as that and then not making use of it anywhere. OD&D artwork is much more crude and typically line-art in nature, whereas this looks more polished and professional. Looks a lot better than FFC artwork as well.
If I follow correctly, Dan is suggesting that this typescript and accompanying images are a final (or close to final) Arneson revision (what Dan is calling MS. 'D') of the pre-press D&D rules which had been developed collaboratively by Gygax and Arneson up to that point (i.e., MSS. A-C). Dan is suggesting that these pages (and accompanying artwork) are revisions which were not available to Gygax at the time which Gygax decided to go ahead with printing OD&D. When OD&D went to press, Gygax used MS. C as a basis.
If this can be proven conclusively, I think the case is strong that these are pre-OD&D rules, ones to which Gygax and TSR didn't have (want?) access for whatever reason. That said, while they may reflect more the design and direction that Dave Arneson intended for OD&D, at this point, they must be considered a textual divergence in the game's early history from that game which has come down to us.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Re: Lost Original D&D Manuscript report « Reply #8 on May 4, 2012, 9:45am »
I posted a link to the images over on the Acaeum to see if anyone recognizes this. If it was ever released it's possible someone like stratochamp has a copy. They've dug up hundreds of small press items from the 70s over there.
Most of the Wee Warriors artwork was done by Morno (Brad Schenck). It doesn't look his style to me. His style is more accomplished, and very flowing, and in the WW items is usually found in the borders.
The sign pointing to "Lord Arn" in the picture makes me think someone other than Arneson drew that picture. I'd need to see more comparisons of his art with those to make any real conclusions about style.
Even if some/all of the text is originally his, how do we know it wasn't revised further by either him or someone else at a later date?
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,327 Location: New Hope, MN Karma: 93
Re: Lost Original D&D Manuscript report « Reply #9 on May 4, 2012, 12:14pm »
What I find interesting about those pictures are how they really capture the "flow" of the game, much more so than the illos in the 3LBBs. For me, that seems like strong evidence for a Manuscript D origin, something put together by someone who's trying to give a sense of what playing the game is like.
I must protest bitterly that my aircraft still has not been painted red.
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 1,596 Location: Schenectady Karma: 73
Re: Lost Original D&D Manuscript report « Reply #10 on May 4, 2012, 2:58pm »
Bugger me THAT's IT! I just looked at the flicker page. Those are the exact images in my copy. Now I have to go through and read all the posts. It's possible that the guy who posted them and the guy who contacted me are the same. will come back to this in a bit as I have to go get my wife from work.
Joined: Jul 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 51 Location: Detroit, MI Karma: 2
Re: Lost Original D&D Manuscript report « Reply #11 on May 4, 2012, 3:17pm »
Not to get all stalkery about this, but if it's the same guy with the Flickr account it looks like he's been asking around about the document for a couple of years, and has an account on this board. He also seems to have been pretty involved with Tekumel stuff.
I must protest bitterly that my aircraft still has not been painted red.
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 1,596 Location: Schenectady Karma: 73
Re: Lost Original D&D Manuscript report « Reply #12 on May 4, 2012, 5:33pm »
Okie-doke ladies and gents. I've been in touch with the owner of the mss. and it turns out that is his flickr page. So the images there are one and the same as I have.
Not to get all stalkery about this, but if it's the same guy with the Flickr account it looks like he's been asking around about the document for a couple of years, and has an account on this board. He also seems to have been pretty involved with Tekumel stuff.
He was one of Barker's players for a long time.
Oh for those who may wish to compare to Arneson's art. Some of the sketches in the 3lbb's are his, but they aren't identified. If you have the '77 FCC print, all the sketches are his. If you only have the 81' FFC the only sketches of his that remain are the little thumbnails on the dungeon maps, but they are still worth looking at. I have one of Arnesons '77 print drawings scanned in so I'll just link it.
Joined: Jul 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 51 Location: Detroit, MI Karma: 2
Re: Lost Original D&D Manuscript report « Reply #14 on May 4, 2012, 6:30pm »
Quote:
Oh for those who may wish to compare to Arneson's art.
That's enough for me. The brief writing samples you posted on your blog made me think the manuscript was possibly authored by Arneson. Comparing the drawings, I now think he's the probable author.
This a really exciting find.
It would be great if this could be published. I'm not certain of the copyright status of an anonymous unpublished work likely created before 1978....
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