It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one's own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Joined: Jul 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 561 Karma: 17
Re: Troop Types « Reply #2 on Jun 23, 2012, 8:02am »
Shouldn't the AS fyrd be lightfoot? Wouldn't they have had just a shield, whereas the huscarl would be wearing chain mail and a helmet in addition?
On point costs. You made a comment not too long ago about assigning horse cost based on it's equivilent power to the foot, but doesn't that really just make them interchangable? If having 6 lightfoot is exactly the same as 1 norman knight on horse in terms of power and cost--then what benefit is there really for a culture to invest in a well armored and trained knight? It's like a car that goes 6 miles in 1 minute vs. the man who takes 1 hour, but the car needs takes 59 minutes to charge it's battery for the trip...
Perhaps gygax and perrin weren't so wrong to make the horse more expensive, but slightly cheap in terms of worth on the battlefield?
Shouldn't the AS fyrd be lightfoot? Wouldn't they have had just a shield, whereas the huscarl would be wearing chain mail and a helmet in addition?
The delineation is unlikely to have been anywhere near that binary. You would have had unarmoured and armoured troops amongst the fyrd, but in this case I was following CM in making "Anglo-Saxons" medium foot (peasants, crews, and missile troops are pretty much the only sort of infantry classified as "light" in CM).
On point costs. You made a comment not too long ago about assigning horse cost based on it's equivalent power to the foot, but doesn't that really just make them interchangable? If having 6 lightfoot is exactly the same as 1 norman knight on horse in terms of power and cost--then what benefit is there really for a culture to invest in a well armored and trained knight? It's like a car that goes 6 miles in 1 minute vs. the man who takes 1 hour, but the car needs takes 59 minutes to charge it's battery for the trip...
What is the point in assigning troops point values if you are going to make them uneven? In other words, no; if you want to fight a battle with uneven forces [i.e. of differing potential to win] then assign different point values to the armies, as CM suggests, not the individual models.
Perhaps Gygax and Perrin weren't so wrong to make the horse more expensive, but slightly cheap in terms of worth on the battlefield?
I am not sure what you are suggesting here, since their worth on the battlefield is directly tied to their point value, but the suggested values are definitely completely out of keeping with the stated intention at the outset of the booklet for using points [i.e. to aid in providing balanced sides for a game]. Technically, there is pretty much no way to balance the troop costs purely on fighting ability, partly because:
3 Light Foot = 1 Heavy Foot 2 Light Foot = 2 Medium Foot 2 Medium Foot = 1 Heavy Foot
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one's own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
Re: Troop Types « Reply #5 on Jun 23, 2012, 10:20am »
I always have to remind myself that CM infantry types aren't about the order/formation. (I think of "heavy foot" as being infantry that fights in close order.)
I see you changed Light Foot/Heavy Foot/Armored Foot to Light Foot/Medium Foot/Heavy Foot.
I confess that is the one thing about CHAINMAIL that always griped my wagger.
Yeah, originally we were just going to keep that change of terminology for home, but it proved too confusing to do so. In my defence, OD&D refers to medium foot as being the result of dismounted medium horse.
I always have to remind myself that CM infantry types aren't about the order/formation. (I think of "heavy foot" as being infantry that fights in close order.)
I think that originally CM did make that distinction, and probably only used the terms "Light Foot", "Heavy Foot", "Light Horse" and "Heavy Horse", with Armoured Foot and Medium Horse being later introductions to increase the granularity of the game.
It is perhaps telling that AD&D only has light and heavy foot types. Also interesting is the descriptions of the difference between heavy and medium horse:
Quote:
Horseman, light: These troops are not trained to operate in close order or formation. They are useful skirmish-raider types only.
Horseman, medium: Similar to heavy cavalry, medium horsemen are trained to operate in formation, but they are generally smaller individuals on lighter horses and do not ride as close to their fellows.
Horseman. heavy: These soldiers are trained to operate in close formation (stirrup-to-stirrup). They are able to use most weapons common to horsemen.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one's own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Horseman, light: These troops are not trained to operate in close order or formation. They are useful skirmish-raider types only.
Horseman, medium: Similar to heavy cavalry, medium horsemen are trained to operate in formation, but they are generally smaller individuals on lighter horses and do not ride as close to their fellows.
[i]Horseman. heavy:[/b] These soldiers are trained to operate in close formation (stirrup-to-stirrup). They are able to use most weapons common to horsemen.
I have not seen yet how close formation is incorporated into CM as an advantage. This is similar to the question I posed before where we compare 6 units in a line close formation to 6 units surrounding them willy-nilly as in a typical AD&D game:
__0_0__ 0XXXXXX0 ___00___
I believe units operating in closed formation should have an advantage but wouldn't the '0' units above have the advantage of flank and rear attacks?
It is not enough to say that the advantage is inherent in the mechanical advantage in combat of heavy horse over light horse because, as you have illustrated with your paper units, all group types tend always act in concert in formation.
To really spell out what I am getting at, if we look at the AD&D notes you quoted why does this not enforce a scattered group formation on light horse in CM and where is there room for the mechanical disadvantage of not being skilled or drilled enough to operate in close formation?
Perhaps Fields of Glory has something to say on this question?
I have not seen yet how close formation is incorporated into CM as an advantage. This is similar to the question I posed before where we compare 6 units in a line close formation to 6 units surrounding them willy-nilly as in a typical AD&D game:
__0_0__ 0XXXXXX0 ___00___
I believe units operating in closed formation should have an advantage but wouldn't the '0' units above have the advantage of flank and rear attacks?
As you note, troops in open order can effectively get around the flanks and rear of a unit in close order, potentially netting an advantage. In your example, the light troops are rolling:
It is not enough to say that the advantage is inherent in the mechanical advantage in combat of heavy horse over light horse because, as you have illustrated with your paper units, all group types tend always act in concert in formation.
Quite right. If it were medium foot in open order facing medium foot in close order, the advantage would clearly be with the former by virtue of their attacking the line from behind. If the rear rank of troops in example B could be turned around that would make a difference.
To really spell out what I am getting at, if we look at the AD&D notes you quoted why does this not enforce a scattered group formation on light horse in CM and where is there room for the mechanical disadvantage of not being skilled or drilled enough to operate in close formation?
Yes, my suspicion is that because CM was designed and developed by war gamers, it never really occurred to them that gamers without that background might try and deploy light troops in close formation or heavy troops in open formation. However, there is one note in the CM combat table section that suggests the distance between individual figures could matter. There close formation is defined as being a minimum of 5 by 2 figures, each less than 1" apart, and it is indicated that Landsknechts defend as heavy foot in close order and as light foot when in open order. That ability might very well indicate that troops are assumed and mandated to be fighting in an order suitable for their type [i.e. light troops must be in open formation, medium troops must be in close formation, and heavy troops must be in close formation]. If that is the case, it probably is enough to assume that their classification type already takes that into account.
Perhaps Fields of Glory has something to say on this question?
In Field of Glory, rear and flank attacks are handled very carefully, so that the majority of cases result only in an "overlap". True rear or flank attacks are potentially devastating, though. Also, skirmishers fighting non-skirmishers always have their attack dice halved, and cannot affect them with a rear attack to the same extent as non-skirmishers can. Indeed, skirmishers have to test in order to attack or stand an attack from non-skirmishers.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one's own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
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