Re: Interpretations, Alterations & Additions « Reply #15 on Jun 28, 2012, 12:52pm »
You seem to have a formula or system for computing point values. How are you going about determining what factors cost? And what is the [4x5] you keep mentioning under Hero? I perceived that CM seems to offer equivalences for many troop types for various alignments, not just in terms of the humanoid troops as you have observed, but also things like: Roc (L), Wyvern (C), Griffon (N) Giant Wolf (C) and Horse (any) Hero (L), Lycanthrope (N), Wraith (C) [or Anti-Hero (C) if you don't like my reasoning] Lycanthropes normally act as Heroes but are boosted to Super-Hero when near their woods. Wraiths attack less as than Heroes but they get Hero and Super-Hero morale effects and paralyze and can't be killed by any number of normal men.
You were also confused by the mixing of Chimera with Griffon, Hippogriff, and Wyvern. Understandable if you take the narrow view of Chimera == the well known monster represented in D&D. However, taking the broader definition of Chimera, it is a monstrous combination of two or more beings. Griffon = Eagle + Lion, Hippogriff = Eagle + Horse, Wyvern = Dragon + Serpent. Makes sense to me in that context.
You seem to have a formula or system for computing point values. How are you going about determining what factors cost? And what is the [4x5] you keep mentioning under Hero?
Ah, right, basically the creatures worth multiple men in CM are usually worth the same multiple of points. So, a hero (4 men) is worth 4 heavy horse (5 points each) or 20 points. An ogre is worth 6 armoured foot (15 points) and a giant is worth 12 armoured foot and a heavy catapult (though technically only attacks as a light catapult, if I recall). Anyway, the adjusted formula I use is:
Light Foot: 1 Medium Foot: 2 Heavy Foot: 3 Light Horse: 4 Medium Horse: 6 Heavy Horse: 8
A samurai (heavy horse/light horse) would thus be 6 points, the average of heavy and light.
I perceived that CM seems to offer equivalences for many troop types for various alignments, not just in terms of the humanoid troops as you have observed, but also things like:
Roc (L), Wyvern (C), Griffon (N) Giant Wolf (C) and Horse (any) Hero (L), Lycanthrope (N), Wraith (C) [or Anti-Hero (C) if you don't like my reasoning]
Lycanthropes normally act as Heroes but are boosted to Super-Hero when near their woods. Wraiths attack less as than Heroes but they get Hero and Super-Hero morale effects and paralyze and can't be killed by any number of normal men.
Yeah, I am undecided as to how to work out the points for special abilities.
You were also confused by the mixing of Chimera with Griffon, Hippogriff, and Wyvern. Understandable if you take the narrow view of Chimera == the well known monster represented in D&D. However, taking the broader definition of Chimera, it is a monstrous combination of two or more beings. Griffon = Eagle + Lion, Hippogriff = Eagle + Horse, Wyvern = Dragon + Serpent. Makes sense to me in that context.
Ah, right, no my confusion was actually over them having two listings in CM, one under Roc and one under Chimera.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one's own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
If we do change the morale rules so that units retreat or rout after suffering one third casualties and failing a stability test, we are considering having the move take place in the following turn. So, a unit of medium horse that suffers a rout at the end of combat would be turned 180 degrees, then in the following turn moved 12" in the first movement phase, and 12" in the second movement phase.
The difference between a retreat and rout will probably be a matter of degree of stability failure. If we say 7+ is required to pass, 4-6 represents a retreat, and 2-3 represents a rout we might not be too far off base. By the same token, a "1" or less could represent surrender, which would be possible if the unit has a penalty to its morale [i.e. instead of having heavy troops pass on 6+ and light troops on 8+ you could describe them as having a bonus and penalty of one point to morale, respectively].
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one's own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Been thinking about the movement rates of some of the humanoids and demi-humans. That is to say, dwarves, gnomes, goblins and kobolds all move slower than their type would suggest, but halflings move 12". Something worrying about that. Anyway, if they did continue to have slower movement rates it might be offset by allowing them to ignore movement penalties in certain terrain types, such as tunnels, but also broken ground and forest maybe.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one's own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Been thinking about the movement rates of some of the humanoids and demi-humans. That is to say, dwarves, gnomes, goblins and kobolds all move slower than their type would suggest, but halflings move 12".
I'm not happy with a halfling move of 12". I'd probably drop it to 9" as light foot.
You seem to have a formula or system for computing point values. How are you going about determining what factors cost? And what is the [4x5] you keep mentioning under Hero?
Ah, right, basically the creatures worth multiple men in CM are usually worth the same multiple of points. So, a hero (4 men) is worth 4 heavy horse (5 points each) or 20 points. An ogre is worth 6 armoured foot (15 points) and a giant is worth 12 armoured foot and a heavy catapult (though technically only attacks as a light catapult, if I recall). Anyway, the adjusted formula I use is:
Light Foot: 1 Medium Foot: 2 Heavy Foot: 3 Light Horse: 4 Medium Horse: 6 Heavy Horse: 8
A samurai (heavy horse/light horse) would thus be 6 points, the average of heavy and light.
You might consider re-doing this and going with the sum rather than the average.
If a unit is light foot/medium foot, the numbers are 1/2 which average to 1.5 points. If you round up, LF/MF is as expensive as MF/MF but if you round down it costs the same as LF/LF but is better.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
...but light foot needs some sort of advantage to offset the loss of 3", hence my thoughts on some sort of movement penalty reduction. On the other hand, maybe the size of the stands would be sufficient.
You might consider re-doing this and going with the sum rather than the average.
If a unit is light foot/medium foot, the numbers are 1/2 which average to 1.5 points. If you round up, LF/MF is as expensive as MF/MF but if you round down it costs the same as LF/LF but is better.
Just a thought.
Hmmn. I would not recommend rounding the numbers up or down, a 1½ point value should be used as is. So, 12 goblins would be 18 points [1½ × 12]. Of course, if fractions are unwelcome all the point values could be doubled.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one's own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Knocking the small races down to 9" movement works okay...
Yeah, that's what I was getting at: 9" for the small stature light foot seems reasonable, to me. Such a base move assumption also explains why medium foot (CM heavy foot) dwarves move at 6", rather than 9".
Quote:
...but light foot needs some sort of advantage to offset the loss of 3", hence my thoughts on some sort of movement penalty reduction. On the other hand, maybe the size of the stands would be sufficient.
Hmm. Not sure. My gut reaction is to say they shouldn't have an offset to their abilities to compensate. If an offset is required for game balance, I'd probably lean towards making it in their point cost.
Yeah, that's what I was getting at: 9" for the small stature light foot seems reasonable, to me. Such a base move assumption also explains why medium foot (CM heavy foot) dwarves move at 6", rather than 9".
Right, and I think halflings have a 9" movement in the Monster Manual, whilst all the other movement rates are the same. On the other hand, it is not like giants get an increased movement rate for their size.
Hmm. Not sure. My gut reaction is to say they shouldn't have an offset to their abilities to compensate. If an offset is required for game balance, I'd probably lean towards making it in their point cost.
Points may be the way to go. At the moment I cannot see goblins filling an effective role in an army. Mind, if the statistics were reversed it would make better sense [i.e. Light Foot in attack, Heavy Foot in defence].
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one's own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Good point. I guess stature isn't the sole consideration. I don't think it would feel quite right for most giants to have a very high movement rate.
Indeed, there is a kind of tension between size and "quickness", giants are big and slow, halflings are small and quick. By contrast, I never think of dwarves as being small and quick, but goblins...
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one's own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one's own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
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