I come more from a background in professional wargaming and very serious simulationist hobby wargaming than RPGs, so I see Chainmail as a comparatively casual, non-simulationist (dare I say 'bear-n-pretzels' ) kind of wargame with a latter overlay of fantastic gaming. It is fun, and I don't think that Gygax and Perren were publishing CM as another entry into the field of serious wargaming. CM is great to study because it represents the moment before the Big Bang of the RPG hobby.
"Professional" wargaming? Somebody pays you to do that?
Also, in 1970, what "serious simulationist hobby wargame" medieval miniatures rules were available? I know WRG was published then, but I don't find it any more likely to produce a historically accurate outcome, merely more complicated.
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
Also, as far as "looking up", somebody got 17 x 22 sheets of white cardboard and put the movement chart, man to man combat, mass combat, and morale charts on cardboard and we hung them on the walls of Don Kaye's garage. We played many, many games of CHAINMAIL without ever opening the booklet, or maybe once or twice to look up something odd.
You go through way more effort to play a game than I ever would!
As for punting rolls, stuff happens. It's a game. Nothing more. I am just streamlining the unnecessary fiddly bits. That is definitely one.
Joined: Jul 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 478 Karma: 37
Re: CHAINMAIL: Historical miniatures « Reply #18 on Feb 5, 2012, 5:26pm »
We were playing multiple times a month, the time payoff was quick.
Also, I disagree about it being "unnecessarily fiddly". It breaks the game historically in too many ways for me. Peasants should never rout knights, period end of sentence, if you make any claims to it being a 'historical medieval' game.
There should be places where the dice will not save you. One of the things that will cause me to chuck a set of miniatures games quickly is when dice rolling supersedes tactics. Star Wars Starship Battles, I'm looking at YOU!
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
We were playing multiple times a month, the time payoff was quick.
Also, I disagree about it being "unnecessarily fiddly". It breaks the game historically in too many ways for me. Peasants should never rout knights, period end of sentence, if you make any claims to it being a 'historical medieval' game.
There should be places where the dice will not save you. One of the things that will cause me to chuck a set of miniatures games quickly is when dice rolling supersedes tactics. Star Wars Starship Battles, I'm looking at YOU!
Lets put this into perspective. 12 HI charge 18 Peasants. The peasants are formed 3 ranks deep while the HI are 2 ranks. There is a 41.6% chance of the peasants simply running away. That's huge. But lets say they stand. Then by the melee chart, the HI get 1 die per man (6 dice for the front rank) and a 5-6 kills. So, in 3 turns, the peasants will take 6 casualties on the average. The peasants will fight back at 1 die per 2 men and 6 kills. 3 dice total would me that they would score about 1.5 hits in 3 turns. Now lets say that the percentage casualties before checking morale is 25%. Well, after 2 rounds the peasants don't check morale on the average since they would only have taken 4 casualties after 2 rounds which is less than 25%. So lets now say they check at 33%. Well, they will take casualties at 3 rounds as well. I chose HI because it is just one grade better. Units of even higher quality will pass the threshold even faster. A mere 8.33% bump does not make a whole lot of difference in this case. Going the other way, you do drop by almost 17% to go from 50 to 33% but quite honestly, any unit that checks at 50% casualties already has a very low chance of failure anyway. Place the commander in the right spot and you will have a bonus of +1 (any unit within 12").
How important is the historical recreation of CHAINMAIL to most people here?
I realize this is an older question, but I figured I'd answer, anyway. My current interest in Chainmail is almost completely oriented towards its use as a historical miniatures game. (To be honest, though, I'm not sure it would be my first choice for historical recreation, at least not based on current research.)
I'm not terribly interested in the Fantasy supplement. At one time I was more interested in that side of Chainmail (and how it related to early D&D), but that's no longer the case. Today, I'd much rather just play Chainmail as its own thing, without the fantasy elements.
(I wouldn't rule out a game that included some stuff from the fantasy supplement, I'd just generally prefer to play without it.)
Joined: Jun 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 218 Location: Kanagawa, Japan Karma: 15
Re: CHAINMAIL: Historical miniatures « Reply #25 on Jun 18, 2012, 6:47am »
I am definitely enjoying playing Chain Mail with a smattering of fantasy elements, not sure it interests me over much as a pure historical miniatures war game.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one's own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
I am definitely enjoying playing Chain Mail with a smattering of fantasy elements, not sure it interests me over much as a pure historical miniatures war game.
What you've done so far doesn't seem too far removed from a straight historical game (ogres being the most definite fantasy element, I guess). I think I'd only want the fantasy elements if I used the game as part of a D&D campaign. And in that case, I'd lean towards a system that more closely followed D&D probabilities. The ones you mentioned would all be potential candidates.
Joined: Jun 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 218 Location: Kanagawa, Japan Karma: 15
Re: CHAINMAIL: Historical miniatures « Reply #27 on Jun 19, 2012, 3:29am »
I reckon the cleric was probably the most fantasy element, but yeah a "smattering" of fantasy is an important caveat. Given that Chain Mail was the precursor to Dungeons & Dragons and the campaign setting was a "proto-Greyhawk", what I am enjoying is its formative influence on adventure gaming, which is to say the impetus that led from war gaming to fantasy war gaming to fantasy adventure gaming.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one's own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
I think it would be fun to create a vassal module for playing Chainmail. There are several for "De Bellis Antiquitatis" miniature rules. I tweaked one for playing Melee/Wizard using some paper miniatures from SJG.
I have most of the Wargame Research Group books, they have great illustrations that could be used a paper miniatures. My avatar is one such.
All for personal use of course. I have no idea what copyright might be in this.
« Last Edit: Jul 23, 2012, 5:49pm by Otto Harkaman »
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) kind of wargame with a latter overlay of fantastic gaming. It is fun, and I don't think that Gygax and Perren were publishing CM as another entry into the field of serious wargaming. CM is great to study because it represents the moment before the Big Bang of the RPG hobby.
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