I think it's high time jacar spoke up and actually explained WHY he "needs" another name for it. Because until he does so, the only answer he'll get out of me is "No, you don't. Call it a Balrog."
Does it really matter why? He just wants a little help from other folks. Most of us have reached a place where the inspiration just ran dry, sometimes an idea from another gamer can really free up the stuck "machinery" of the mind.
Let's try to keep this a place where gamers can share ideas in a friendly manner.
Joined: Jul 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 478 Karma: 37
Re: I need another name for Balrog « Reply #17 on Nov 19, 2011, 7:52pm »
"As Goodgulf stepped onto the bridge the passage echoed with an ominous dribble, dribble, and a great crowd of narcs burst forth. In their midst was a towering dark shadow too terrible to describe. In its hand it held a huge black globe and on its chest was written in cruel runes, 'Villanova.'"
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
"As Goodgulf stepped onto the bridge the passage echoed with an ominous dribble, dribble, and a great crowd of narcs burst forth. In their midst was a towering dark shadow too terrible to describe. In its hand it held a huge black globe and on its chest was written in cruel runes, 'Villanova.'"
Is that from "Bored of the Rings"? I'll admit it has been a long time since I've read it but it sounds like it was lifted straight out of the book. At any rate, it was quite amusing.
"Balrog" is Sindarin for "demon of might." But it clearly has cognates with the two Hebrew words:
בעל ךע
I wonder if you are joking? Tolkien drew virtually exclusively on germanic, celtic, and Finno-ugric, attempting to revive northern cosmology for english speakers. The idea that he would, in a single instance, use Hebrew!! as a referent seems simply unbelievable.
Its good 'n all Aher if you enjoy making that association in your games, and there's prolly others who will like that approach too, but "clearly cognate" is, to be kind, something of a stretch.
"As Goodgulf stepped onto the bridge the passage echoed with an ominous dribble, dribble, and a great crowd of narcs burst forth. In their midst was a towering dark shadow too terrible to describe. In its hand it held a huge black globe and on its chest was written in cruel runes, 'Villanova.'"
Is that from "Bored of the Rings"? I'll admit it has been a long time since I've read it but it sounds like it was lifted straight out of the book. At any rate, it was quite amusing.
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
aher Guest
Re: I need another name for Balrog « Reply #22 on Nov 20, 2011, 2:45am »
"Balrog" is Sindarin for "demon of might." But it clearly has cognates with the two Hebrew words:
בעל ךע
I wonder if you are joking? Tolkien drew virtually exclusively on germanic, celtic, and Finno-ugric, attempting to revive northern cosmology for english speakers. The idea that he would, in a single instance, use Hebrew!! as a referent seems simply unbelievable.
Its good 'n all Aher if you enjoy making that association in your games, and there's prolly others who will like that approach too, but "clearly cognate" is, to be kind, something of a stretch.
No joke actually. While he was by no means fluent in Hebrew, Tolkien did indeed study it, and explicitly based two Middle Earth languages on it: Khuzdûl and Adûnaic. So "Baal Raa" wouldn't be the only instance of a Hebrew-inspired word. Here's my justification:
I. Tolkien was not fluent with Hebrew, but when he translated the Book of Jonah from French to English, he consulted Hebrew lexicons and dictionaries. Source: Tolkien and the Study of His Sources: Critical Essays by Jason Fisher, http://books.google.com/books?id=98VQ3gH....=hebrew&f=false
II. Khuzdûl (Dwarven)
A. "Tolkien also commented of the Dwarves that 'their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic.'" Source: Wikipedia article on Khuzdul http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khuzdul
B. "Tolkien wrote that Dwarves reminded him of Jews and he employed Semitic phonemes in constructing their language." Source: J.R.R. Tolkien encyclopedia: scholarship and critical assessment by Michael D. C. Drout, http://books.google.com/books?id=B0loOBA....semitic&f=false
C. "When giving Dwarves their own language (Khuzdûl) Tolkien decided to create an analogue of a Semitic language influenced by Hebrew phonology...The Gimli-Legolas relationship has been seen as Tolkien's reply toward 'Gentile anti-Semitism and Jewish exclusiveness.'...Tolkien also elaborated on Jewish influence on his Dwarves in a letter: 'I do think of the Dwarves like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue...'" Source: Wikipedia article on Middle Earth Dwarves, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_%28Middle-earth%29
III. Adûnaic
In the second age, in Númenor, Sindarin was the literary language, while Adûnaic was the vernacular.
A. "Tolkien devised Adûnaic shortly after World War II. It was intended to have a 'faintly Semitic flavour' or style."
B. Like the Semitic languages of our own age, Adûnaic...
1. employs a system of triconsonantal word-bases, apparently adopted from Khuzdul at some point in the past (some bases have only two consonants)
2. is inflected for three numbers: Singular, dual and plural
3. has no true genitive
4. has "adverbial 'prepositional' elements": ô "from", ad, ada "to, towards", mâ "with", zê "at". [In Hebrew, "m-" means "through," "b-" means "with" or "in", "l-" means "to" or "towards," etc. Same structure, different phonemes.]
Hope this is enough to convince some people at least of the possibility that the word "Balrog" may be based on the Hebrew two lexemes, "Baal" and "Raa."
I think it's high time jacar spoke up and actually explained WHY he "needs" another name for it. Because until he does so, the only answer he'll get out of me is "No, you don't. Call it a Balrog."
And high time is upon us! In case you missed the other threads, I am working through a re-write of Chainmail. It will be very close to the original. As "Balrog" (TM) is copyrighted material, I am looking for another name. This is not a commercial project. But still, I do not want to step on the toes of the Tolkien estate if I don't have to. So, it is best to simply rename the "Balrog" (TM).
The Hobbit is easy enough by making them Halfling. That name has been used over and over again in other no WotC products (commercial and free) so I can't think that WotC will come after me. In that particular case, it is probably covered under OGL anyway.
Does it really matter why? He just wants a little help from other folks. Most of us have reached a place where the inspiration just ran dry, sometimes an idea from another gamer can really free up the stuck "machinery" of the mind.
Let's try to keep this a place where gamers can share ideas in a friendly manner.
It DOES matter, as jacar's post above illustrates. Dodging copyright is one thing, and then Rolab or Balro or Fiery-Sword-and-Whip-Demon are perfectly good options.
On the other hand, for all we knew he MIGHT have needed it because he wanted his party to go up against one, he might have wanted to have an NPC talk about it, but if he had called it a "Balrog", his metagaming players would have immediately stocked up on just the right spells despite their characters never having heard of the things. In this case, the above examples would NOT have served the purpose of not letting the players know what's coming. So yes, it matters why.
Joined: Dec 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 294 Location: Miskatonic U Karma: 9
Re: I need another name for Balrog « Reply #25 on Nov 20, 2011, 1:00pm »
You had best call it, "Sir"...
My vote is for Gothrog if this is going to be a publicly available item. You'd probably need to get Matt's permission to use Baalroch (unless he considers it OGC).
"Those who swallow the camel of the entire concept, then strain at gnats of a particular monster or situation seem to be be losing much of the basis for playing. However, that sort of thing happens as one becomes familiar with the fanciful and begins to qualify the experience by comparison to reality." - EGG
"Those who swallow the camel of the entire concept, then strain at gnats of a particular monster or situation seem to be be losing much of the basis for playing. However, that sort of thing happens as one becomes familiar with the fanciful and begins to qualify the experience by comparison to reality." - EGG
Sophistry. The other posts in the thread demonstrated he didn't care if it sounded similar or not (Balrog versus Baalroch). All you really needed to know is that he needed a different name, and he told you that in his first post.
And whether that particular line of reasoning is enough for you or not, it certainly didn't justify your demanding of him what his reasons were for asking. Just to be clear, there is nothing wrong with asking for more information. It seemed demanding more before consenting to help a fellow gamer appeared rather discourteous. And, bluntly, your reasons justifying your demand are pretty thin sauce.
My vote is for Gothrog if this is going to be a publicly available item. You'd probably need to get Matt's permission to use Baalroch (unless he considers it OGC).
The whole of S&W, save for the Trademarks, art and Wine Dark Sea map added to the 4th printing of core, is OGC.
So, not being a lawyer, I can only say I don't see an issue if you want to use Matt's version and I'm fairly confident, that his intent was to make all that gaming goodness available for everyone's use, since that's what he did. Swell guy, that Mr. Finch.
I must protest bitterly that my aircraft still has not been painted red.
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 1,596 Location: Schenectady Karma: 73
Re: I need another name for Balrog « Reply #29 on Nov 20, 2011, 10:17pm »
Quote:
only[/i] instance of a Hebrew-inspired word. Here's my justification:.....
I'll be buggered. Never would I have thought dwarvish was related to hebrew.... Somehow that's just weird, but does explain the kh's.
Anyhow, the word balrog predates both of those languages, appearing in Tolkiens first constructed language, "gnomish" IIRC, created during WW1.
Honestly, I've always suspected the Balraug is cognate with OE Bealu (as in the word Baleful and meaning a wicked or injurious thing) + draug. (a kind of ghoul or undead). Just drop the pronunciation of u and d as often happens in blended words and Beal raug is a more likely fit for balrog than Baal raa, but i'm admittedly guessing.
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