Men versus Monsters « Thread Started on Feb 10, 2011, 12:49am »
I was browsing a few different threads on these forums, and it seems the prevailing interpretation for using OD&D with Chainmail is that normal men simply cannot harm fantastic opponents, as only "Hero" and "Superhero" may roll on Chainmail's Fantasy Combat Table.
What is the argument for this, again? Chainmail clearly states that many monsters can be harmed by normal men (the entry for Ogre, for instance, gives that monster 6 hits by normal men, or one hit by a hero). There are certainly are monsters that are described as being impervious to normal attack, but not all fantastic opponents carry this description.
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,503 Karma: 57
Re: Men versus Monsters « Reply #1 on Feb 10, 2011, 2:19am »
Any creature who is listed in Appendix D (Fantasy Reference Table), under Attack and Defend, as "Special" can only be fought on the Fantasy Combat Table (Appendix E) (or through their own special rules, such as Wizards).
Other creatures, such as the Ogre, can be fought by normal men.
In other words, the "fantastic opponents" to which you refer are the ones on the Fantasy Combat Table.
Re: Men versus Monsters « Reply #3 on Feb 10, 2011, 2:10pm »
Ok thanks for the clarification! I thought there must be some distinction...
So what is the consensus on Monsters versus Men? If you have a Swordsman (who can fight as a Hero), does an attacking Troll roll on the Fantasy Combat Table or on the Man-to-Man table to harm him? And does a success on the Fantasy Combat Table equal one hit (with 1-6 points of damage), or one kill?
So what is the consensus on Monsters versus Men? If you have a Swordsman (who can fight as a Hero), does an attacking Troll roll on the Fantasy Combat Table or on the Man-to-Man table to harm him? And does a success on the Fantasy Combat Table equal one hit (with 1-6 points of damage), or one kill?
I don't know about consensus (or even if there IS a consensus), but it seems to me that combat between a Swordsman and a Troll would indeed be done on the Fantasy Combat Table. And yes, the attack would do 1-6 points of damage, as seen here:
D&D Volume III, p. 25:
Quote:
with scores equalling a drive back or kill equal only to a hit.
Ok thanks for the clarification! I thought there must be some distinction...
So what is the consensus on Monsters versus Men? If you have a Swordsman (who can fight as a Hero), does an attacking Troll roll on the Fantasy Combat Table or on the Man-to-Man table to harm him? And does a success on the Fantasy Combat Table equal one hit (with 1-6 points of damage), or one kill?
Hero vs. Ogre rolls on the Fantasy Combat Table. Roll equal to the target number pushes the defender back one square, greater than the target number kills the defender. The text is unambiguous in my opinion. [edit: thanks to Coffee for the quote suggesting otherwise!]
Against normal troops, the Ogre attacks and defends as 6 heavy foot.
True Trolls are a special case and can only be killed in Fantasy combat, where they fight as Giants, as stated in their descriptive text.
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Re: Men versus Monsters « Reply #6 on Feb 10, 2011, 2:34pm »
The text of Chainmail as a wargame is indeed unambiguous. But based on the first post, I assumed we were using Chainmail with D&D for purposes of this discussion.
The text of Chainmail as a wargame is indeed unambiguous. But based on the first post, I assumed we were using Chainmail with D&D for purposes of this discussion.
Otherwise it would be a kill, yes.
I've never actually played D&D plus Chainmail, so it is a theoretical discussion for me. I always assumed that if you played D&D using Chainmail as the combat system, one hit = one kill. However the quote you found suggests otherwise, thanks!
But now is there any place in the D&D books where it actually says whether to use the Troop, Man-to-Man, or Fantasy tables (or all 3)? Or is the text ambiguous?
But now is there any place in the D&D books where it actually says whether to use the Troop, Man-to-Man, or Fantasy tables (or all 3)? Or is the text ambiguous?
Ambiguous is putting it mildly
Here's the entire paragraph I quoted from above:
Quote:
The basic system is that from CHAINMAIL, with one figure representing one man or creature. Melee can be conducted with the combat table given in Volume I or by the CHAINMAIL system, with scores equalling a drive back or kill equal only to a hit. Battles involving large numbers of figures can be fought at a 20:1 ratio, with single fantastic types fighting separately at 1:1 or otherwise against but a single 20:1 figure.
I always read that as using the Man-to-Man portion of Chainmail, but others on this forum believe it means to use the Mass Combat (with Fantasy Supplement) for individuals, instead of 20:1 ratio.
(And the last part, with one fantastic type against a single 20:1 figure -- I still don't know how that would work.)
Anyway, that's the way I read it. Hope this helps!
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Re: Men versus Monsters « Reply #9 on Feb 10, 2011, 4:30pm »
Aye, ambiguous.
I think the answer depends on whether or not you're using the Greyhawk Supplement with its weapon vs. armor type and damage vs. larger opponents tables.
If you're playing with just the 3 "LBB's" then take a look at a 3rd-level F-M (Swordsman): his "Fighting Capability" is "3 men or Hero -1." It's clear to me that these refer to the mass combat table (used for resolving combat between groups of men) and the fantasy combat table (since it is the only table that references heroes, superheroes, and wizards).
I interpret this to mean that, vs. any normal opponent, he fights as 3 men (anywhere from light foot to heavy horse, depending on equipment) on the mass combat table at 1:1 scale. And when facing creatures explicitly marked as Special on the Fantasy Reference Table (Balrogs and the like), he fights as hero -1 on the Fantasy table.
This has the consequence that, in normal combat, weapon type is irrelevant (as it is in the 3 LBBs) and only armor type matters. (All that's missing is a table converting leather/chain/plate/shield to light/heavy/armored foot.) But it also has the side effect that, on the fantasy table, weapon and armor types are completely irrelevant! This gives a wonderful "pulp" element whereby heavy arms and armor are effective against an army of orcs, but when facing a dragon, your best bet is to strip down to your loincloth, oil yourself up, clench your dagger between your teeth, and jump onto its back. It also has the side effect that 1st level characters simply cannot harm fantastical creatures without magical aid. I like this but YMMV.
But if you are using the Greyhawk Supplement, then I agree there is a case for using M-t-M. Furthermore, I think the weapon-damage-vs-large-creatures rule replaces the Fantasy Combat Table by giving Fighting Men a boost vs. dragons, balrogs, etc. All you'd need to do to make it work is assign various creatures a corresponding weapon and armor type (tough hide is like leather and claws are like daggers) and in fact I think I've seen something like this done before on these forums. It somewhat "demystifies" fantastical creatures by imagining them as a collection of teeth, scales, and talons, rather than a single terrifying entity as the Fantasy Table.
What I would never do is mix M-t-M and Fantasy within a single campaign, since the math is just weird. For example a Super Hero wielding a sword has an easier time hitting a dragon (10 on the FCT) than hitting an orc with plate & shield (11 on MtM).
In summary I would probably choose mass combat+fantasy table for a freewheeling, pulp/weird, rules-lite 3 LBB campaign, and MtM for a "realistic," medieval-Europe-style Greyhawk campaign. (edit: assuming a parallel universe where the D&D rules don't exist and d20's haven't been invented, of course!)
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,503 Karma: 57
Re: Men versus Monsters « Reply #10 on Feb 10, 2011, 5:48pm »
Well...
As far as the Superhero vs. the Dragon, sure that would be on the Fantasy table. I wouldn't see any reason to do it on the MtM table.
But how about the Superhero vs. 6 normal men? The progression holds on the Fighting Capability column, so the Superhero would fight as 8 men. That means he gets 8 attacks on the MtM table against those 6 men. He could possibly kill all 6 of them!
It's like the example of the Troll, on p. 5 of V. II:
Quote:
Attack/Defense capabilities versus normal men are simply a matter of allowing one roll as a man-type for every hit die, with any bonuses being given to only one of the attacks, i.e. a Troll would attack six times, once with a +3 added to the die roll. (Combat is detailed in Vol. III.)
Again, that's how I've always read it.
As long as your interpretation works for you, I have no beef with it.
As far as the Superhero vs. the Dragon, sure that would be on the Fantasy table. I wouldn't see any reason to do it on the MtM table.
Agreed, and that's probably how I'd do it at my table. However a Greyhawk-style group that enjoys weapon-vs-armor "realism" might find the Fantasy table over-simplified. So for this style of play, you could say maybe the dragon fights on MtM as barded horse with teeth like a dagger and claws like battle axes, or something like that. This means pikes, lances, and plate armor are the best (melee) tools for fighting dragons, sounds "realistic" to me I suppose.
But how about the Superhero vs. 6 normal men? The progression holds on the Fighting Capability column, so the Superhero would fight as 8 men. That means he gets 8 attacks on the MtM table against those 6 men. He could possibly kill all 6 of them!
I agree, except that I would not use MtM for an 8-on-1 fight. I would use mass combat, so if the combatants are equally armed, the Superhero rolls 8 dice and gets a "kill" (or 1d6 damage) for each 6, while the men roll 6 dice hitting on 6. If one side has better armor, then the number of dice changes; at the extreme, if the 6 normal men are heavy horse and the Superhero is light foot, he rolls 2d6 and they roll 24d6!
I do see the argument for using MtM for this fight, but rolling 2d6, adding the dice, comparing it vs. the chart, then repeating 8 times for the Superhero and 6 times for the men, then rolling damage.... too clumsy at the table, IMHO.
As long as your interpretation works for you, I have no beef with it.
As I said, I've never used this in a game, so I'm just thinkin' out loud here. Personally I have never used weapon vs. armor tables and so therefore I would not personally use MtM. Also I want to get the point across to the OP that, by my reading, regular combat and fantasy combat are totally distinct systems; fantasy combat is, indeed, limited to Heroes and Wizards and has no basis in "reality" whatsoever. Fantasy combat allows Bard to slay Smaug with a single arrow or Conan to punch a swamp beast in the snout, and that may or may not be appropriate for all styles of play.
Re: Men versus Monsters « Reply #14 on Feb 18, 2011, 11:56pm »
Ok, so new question. When fighting a Giant, for instance, does a Hero use the Fantasy Table or does he attack as 4 men? If he gets his choice, why wouldn't he always choose to fight as 4 men (which has better odds to do damage)? If he is forced to make a single attack on the Fantasy Table, why should a Warrior be more dangerous to a Giant than a Hero?*
*This is based on the logic that a Warrior (2nd level Fighting-Man) cannot roll on the Fantasy Table, but gets 2+1 attacks against mundane enemies and thus deals far more damage to a Giant than a 4th level Hero would.
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