Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,327 Location: New Hope, MN Karma: 93
Cloning the Fantasy Supplement? « Thread Started on Jul 6, 2010, 11:46am »
What would it take?
I mean, the rules aren't covered under the SRD, but just as early RPGs stripped D&D down to bare mechanics, which aren't copywriteable, couldn't we do the same thing with the three tables that make up the core of the Fantasy Supplement?
The stuff that Dan, Jason and Fin have been working on are great, but you still need the Chainmail rules, which aren't legally available even by pdf anymore. This is a major stumbling block, I think, to getting more actual experimenting with the possibilities of this system.
Re: Cloning the Fantasy Supplement? « Reply #1 on Jul 6, 2010, 12:14pm »
I think it is pretty straightforward... since rules cannot be copyrighted. just use a 2d6 target number system; with a hit causing 1d6 points of damage. call movements in numbers of squares or hexes; and note that each square or hex is 10'
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,327 Location: New Hope, MN Karma: 93
Re: Cloning the Fantasy Supplement? « Reply #2 on Jul 6, 2010, 12:30pm »
Well, remembering we're talking about three separate systems here, I think you're right on with the Troop system (pg. 40 in the Chainmail rules), and probably both of the missile-fire tables both earlier in the rules (pg. 11) and the ones connected with the Man-to-Man table (pg. 41), but the Man-to-Man table (pg. 41) and the Fantastic Combat (pg. 44) tables might be a bit trickier.
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,327 Location: New Hope, MN Karma: 93
Re: Cloning the Fantasy Supplement? « Reply #3 on Jul 6, 2010, 9:13pm »
Over on my blog, it was suggested that I start by restating the tables and rephrasing anything specific from the FS text. This seems like a solid start to me.
So, I see two directions, here:
1. Trying to clone just the Fantasy Supplement, as (ironically) an alternative combat system for D&D.
2. Actually creating less of a clone than what we're calling over on the TARGA Wiki a "simulacrum"---an actual new game in the spirit of the FS, using the restated tables as its mechanical base.
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Re: Cloning the Fantasy Supplement? « Reply #4 on Jul 7, 2010, 8:14am »
Well, Spellcraft & Swordplay already functions as a sort of Simulacrum, albeit based upon the Man to Man and Troop Type systems (with the advent of the mook rules in MM) rather than the Fantasy supplement.
I posted this on your blog, but I'll re-post here (expanded a teensy bit) for everyone to see.
On one hand, I agree that the lack of a legally available version of Chainmail makes it difficult for newcomers to add to the discussion. However, so does the lack of a legally available version of OD&D. Let's face it--in general and especially for this discussion, Swords and Wizardry doesn't cut it. It's a fine (I'd say exceptional) old school game, but OD&D it's just not.
I don't want anyone to think I'm blasting S&W--I don't want to remotely attack the work that was done on either the core rules OR White Box. Both are absolutely fantastic games, and great simulacrums for old school play, and I have purchased both versions. I just think they miss the boat on being retro clones of OD&D. Too many alterations, tweaks and deviations from the original core.
Of course we do have Labyrinth Lord plus Original Edition Characters, which IS 99.5% OD&D...but again, there's no references to Chainmail in there anyway to foster discussion, so that doesn't help us at all. The closest we have to a Chainmail-driven retro game is my own Spellcraft & Swordplay, and that's "inspired by," not "cloned from" (though my combat tables are close enough to Chainmail's MtM tables for gummint work). In any case, it doesn't serve our purposes, either.
In the end, the point is, it's a bit moot that Chainmail isn't legally available because neither is OD&D--at least, not in the sense of a version that suggests the use of Chainmail for combat. That Fin, myself, aldarron, and others have done scholarship about how to use it with OD&D is no different than my Age of Conan or Doc's Warriors of Mars (or Geoff's Carcosa, for that matter). It's just more support for an old school, oop game.
That being said, if you want to clone the rules, then your best bet is to rewrite them as they stand, simply rephrasing what is already there in your own words, and then reproduce the table, but shift all the target numbers up by one (so a 10 on the original table becomes an 11 on yours). You can then--if you want to go for a 100% accurate re-statement, reproduce the mathematical accuracy of the original system by having heroes roll 2d6+1 instead of just 2d6, which shifts the die probabilities to match your new target numbers.
Voila--a retro-clone re-stated just enough to get around copyright infringement.
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Re: Cloning the Fantasy Supplement? « Reply #5 on Jul 10, 2010, 2:18pm »
Not that it matters, but I'd love to see a retro-clone/simulacrum of Chainmail, whether in whole or in part. It's something that's sorely lacking and, given that we can't assume WotC will ever again make legal PDFs available again, I think it's vital that an alternative come into being.
I must protest bitterly that my aircraft still has not been painted red.
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Re: Cloning the Fantasy Supplement? « Reply #6 on Jul 11, 2010, 8:56pm »
What might be an interesting experiment would be to take the S&W Whitebox, scrap the combat system, and replace it with a Chainmail based one. It would certainly make it feel more like OD&D but probably wouldn't be legal.
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,327 Location: New Hope, MN Karma: 93
Re: Cloning the Fantasy Supplement? « Reply #7 on Jul 11, 2010, 9:07pm »
I'm not sure why it wouldn't be legal if, as we've been discussing, the tables are revamped to get to their essence.
At the moment, I'm leaning towards the creation of a new game extrapolated from the Fantasy Supplement engine, as it were. I'm about 75% done with a previous project that did this, but made explicit reference to Chainmail. If I re-approach it with this new direction in mind, it hopefully won't take me to long to get a draft done for comments.
What might be an interesting experiment would be to take the S&W Whitebox, scrap the combat system, and replace it with a Chainmail based one. It would certainly make it feel more like OD&D but probably wouldn't be legal.
Oh, the irony. When I first signed on to the WB project that was actually my plan, since I was using Chainmail that summer to run my home campaign. Folks I talked to said it was too radical a change and convinced me to stay more traditional with combat. In part, that's where my "Ringmail Variant" came from.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,327 Location: New Hope, MN Karma: 93
Re: Cloning the Fantasy Supplement? « Reply #10 on Jul 12, 2010, 4:17pm »
Quote:
As an aside, Kesher I think you know this but I thought I'd mention that the attack matrix in D@T is a reworking of the Fantasy Combat table.
Indeed, which is why I just pulled out my copy to start rereading...
As for the other concerns, the more I think about this, I don't think a reworking would be any more at risk for the litigious hammer than, for instance, D@D would be for extrapolating from all its sources.
Probably best if I just do the work and hand everyone something tangible, instead of my own abstractions...
[quote author=kesher board=chainmail thread=4119 post=52559 time=1278900423]I dunno, but I was thinking it might not conform to S&W's requirements in addition to whatever Wotc issues their might be.
Matt's (aka Mythmere) requirements for S&W are really easy to follow. Basically, if any armor class listings list both ascending and descending values in the text, you are probably okay.
Matt is an approachable guy, btw, so if you have a question a quick read of the boilerplate at the end of S&W doesn't answer, drop him an e-mail.
[quote author=kesher board=chainmail thread=4119 post=52559 time=1278900423]I dunno, but I was thinking it might not conform to S&W's requirements in addition to whatever Wotc issues their might be.
Matt's (aka Mythmere) requirements for S&W are really easy to follow. Basically, if any armor class listings list both ascending and descending values in the text, you are probably okay.
Matt is an approachable guy, btw, so if you have a question a quick read of the boilerplate at the end of S&W doesn't answer, drop him an e-mail.
Therein lies the problem, though--a Chainmail retro-clone wouldn't use AC at all, but rather simply would list what type of armor you were wearing. You could, of course, introduce AC into the equation, but that would be a step away from cloning Chainmail, back towards D&D.
Therein lies the problem, though--a Chainmail retro-clone wouldn't use AC at all, but rather simply would list what type of armor you were wearing. You could, of course, introduce AC into the equation, but that would be a step away from cloning Chainmail, back towards D&D.
Really? I'm thinking no AC = no problem.
The Ascending/Descending AC is a major characteristic of S&W, if you don't need to use it then that eliminates a big editing problem for you.
(I won't mention how sheepish I am that I forgot about no AC in Chainmail ...)
Joined: Jul 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 1,307 Karma: 43
Re: Cloning the Fantasy Supplement? « Reply #14 on Jul 13, 2010, 8:48am »
I think the problem is that the S&W license requires that you include Ascending AC and Descending AC. I don't think you could put out an S&W branded (or licensed) product without including AC. But of course, I'm not the license holder for those--Mythmere would have to make that call.
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