Topic: More thoughts on a BH "clone"... (Read 1,549 times)
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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More thoughts on a BH "clone"... « Thread Started on Jul 14, 2010, 7:08am »
Rather than revive the other "clone" thread, I wanted to start a new one.
I'm tinkering with Boot Hill style rules, although my experience with the S&W White Box makes me think that making a "clone" claim can only lead to "oh, no you didn't" kinds of arguments that are counterproductive.
My current thought is: * Start with 1E as my "baseline" rules set. * Convert tables to d20 rather than d100. If nothing else, this tends to "hide" the fact that it's so similar a system. * Make an attempt to incorporate some material from Dragon, some sort of generic background, some sort of simple skills.
My questions as to how close to the original it "needs" to be in order for you to not hate it: * Does the use of a d20 over d100 change the "feel" too much somehow? * What if in using a d20 the probabilities aren't exactly the same? (For example, most things divide by 5% but a few are 2% or 4%.) * If terms like "below average" etc were reorganized to be more standard, would that be a bad thing? * What (if anything) simply must be kept in? (It's just not BH without it....) * What (if anything) should be left out? (For example, in OD&D there are two combat systems. You don't need two.)
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
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Re: More thoughts on a BH "clone"... « Reply #1 on Jul 15, 2010, 10:11am »
Disclaimer: I've never played BootHill.
I don't think that switching from d100 to d20 has much of an effect on a game system as long as the basic probabilities are similar.
Having stats called "below average" is nice for giving a general feel to the players what their characters are like beyond the numbers, so if BootHill does it I suppose a clone should also. I'm not sure if they have to be the same descriptions, just something to give the right feel.
If you do this, how about adding a "scifi BootHill" appendix so I can run Firefly.
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Re: More thoughts on a BH "clone"... « Reply #2 on Jul 15, 2010, 10:18am »
I never played BH too, tough I occasionnaly played western with ultralight D&D rules (6 stats, fire = roll under dex, hit = kill for NPCS, wound for PC. Nothing more).
Even if there's no math difference between d20 and %, this is just another mood, which is very important by itself - and I must admit, a good way to disguise a game mech.
As in BRP, % allows a slow progression in scores. I had bad experiences with the 'roll over' experience system in BRP, but even allowing a +1 in a percent score to a character is a kind reward, with not so disturbing effect on the game.
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Re: More thoughts on a BH "clone"... « Reply #3 on Aug 4, 2010, 9:44am »
Hmmm. I played a lot of Boot Hill 2nd edition back in the day. It was usually just two of us with my friend as the referree and myself as the only PC (although my friend always ran my npc partner). We had a 3 year long campaign that featured a lot of juvenile behavior, but we had a great time. I think going to D20 would indeed change the feel. Hit locations and wound severity would also be key elements to me. Also, one of the issues I had with the 3rd edition was the way they changed character stats effecting accuracy and speed. I haven't looked at the 1st edition rules to really know the differences between it and 2nd edition, but I would hazard a guess that most people who played BH frequently used the 2nd edition rules.
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Re: More thoughts on a BH "clone"... « Reply #4 on Aug 21, 2010, 7:42pm »
I'd want something compatible with 2e.
If I ever wanted to play Boot Hill (and I just might...), I'd pick up a copy of 2e off of ebay, where they pop up regularly. So I'd want any clone to be similar, so I could cherry-pick from clone adventures.
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Re: More thoughts on a BH "clone"... « Reply #5 on Sept 9, 2010, 12:25am »
I have very fond memories of Boot Hill. It was my first actual RPG, though I only ran it as a table top game for the first couple of years that I owned it. I was lucky in my first gaming group as they shared my varied interests, so we tried a ton of settings.
I think that the percentile system is actually what gives Boot Hill its flavor. I've always had a fondness for % systems, perhaps due to the fact that my first three rpgs (Boot Hill, GangBusters and Top Secret) all used them. I remember actually being disappointed in AD&D because combat was based on a d20 roll! How things change.
I even use parts of the Boot Hill system to spice up several of my other games. Generally the hit location and severity tables.
As with any game I had to, in the words of RAH, "pee in it so I like the flavor better." I added stats for riding ability, sense acuity, and separated Long Gun and Hand Gun accuracy into two stats. (I happen to be one of the best rifle shots I've ever met but a rather mediocre pistol shot!)
Good luck with the clone, though. I'm quite interested in any progress you may have made.
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Re: More thoughts on a BH "clone"... « Reply #6 on Oct 6, 2010, 12:17am »
Never played the 1st or 2nd edition, only the 3rd..which happens to be D20.. I know this post is old, but instead of cloning, why not just buy the 3rd edition?
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Re: More thoughts on a BH "clone"... « Reply #7 on Oct 6, 2010, 7:37am »
3rd edition, IMO, is awful. I gave my copy away to Fin (who wanted it for completeness sake). It completely changes the mechanics and the feel of Boot Hill 1st/2nd
Re: More thoughts on a BH "clone"... « Reply #8 on Jul 16, 2012, 11:50am »
My thoughts on a clone are mixed,towards no.
Here's why: like me a lot of older gamers are aware of BH, but few probably played it or for that long. The rules while simple are... Sparse and often incomplete. People know of the name Boot Hill, who wrote it and such but very few know the nature of the rules until recently. Gun fighting is well done, but say brawling... It's got good and bad points.
If anything a re-imagining of it is needed that keeps the simplicity of the gunfight.
The ideas I have milling around keep the basis on d100, and modify from there.
Re: More thoughts on a BH "clone"... « Reply #9 on Aug 14, 2012, 7:23pm »
Been thinking about this topic for a bit.
I would use 2nd ed, simply because that is what I think of when I think of BH. The box set was my first purchase of non-D&D stuff. Then MA, but but Mr. Ward is still working on it.
I always felt that the gunfighting rules were fairly well done. Not overly complex, and once learned flowed very well. What was lacking was any sort of elements to make something other than gunfighters. How does one make Lawyers, Judges, Shopkeepers, Ranch Hands, etc.
I would be willing to work on tweaking the core to get a better system or start with scratch and "build" a new system. Seems that 3.5 might work as a baseline. It offers several advantages, which I should not need to elaborate on.
Starting from scratch offers advantages also. I did like the percentile system for combat. Borrowing from Traveller for a skill system could work also. A simple skill system with target numbers, 6/8/A and some skills for mod, nothing too high or multitudinous.
Just some basic thoughts and rough thoughts at that. Like I said something I could get behind to help flesh out if there was any interest.
Re: More thoughts on a BH "clone"... « Reply #10 on Aug 19, 2012, 8:54am »
I was in the same boat for a while but based on some comments over at DF by Gary its readily apparent that even he realized there were holes big enough to drive a train through (duh right
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Re: More thoughts on a BH "clone"... « Reply #11 on Aug 19, 2012, 9:15am »
Here is an off-the-cuff idea ...
Why not use Traveller's skill system adapted to the Old West to fill in BH's gaps? Seems like a quick and reasonable fix.
Everyone might get a zero skill horse-back riding and handgun (basic familiarity but no true skill) and then everything is rolled for a char-gen.
I mean, most of us know what a barber, lawyer, assayer, sheriff, bartender, etc. do, even in the late 1800's. So all we truly lack is a skill system. Traveller fills that need, along with some info on firearms, ranges of same, and riding mounts.
Re: More thoughts on a BH "clone"... « Reply #12 on Aug 19, 2012, 3:26pm »
That was my thoughts too. A traveller skill system would be easy to adapt.
Would not need a skill to cut hair per se, but law, guide, survival, tracking, things like that. Then adapt a target number based on how hard it is, i have heard good things about 68A. Easy, Medium, Hard, with other outside modifiers. It is something I am going to try with T5 when I get the book.
I do like the percential system for combat, but if we go a Traveller route we may need to toss that out and go with a similar system for combat.
OF course we could just MOD Classic Traveller to do the samething. Over on Citizens of the Imperium some one is working on making the core LBB into a fantasy game. Not interested in that, but may pop over there and see how that project is going and see how much conversion it has taken him. Of course im slightly biased as CT is my favorite RPG, even over AD&D, hearsey I know, but there you have it.
Joined: Nov 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 1,554 Location: Austin TX USA Karma: 151
Re: More thoughts on a BH "clone"... « Reply #13 on Aug 19, 2012, 5:34pm »
The reason I didn't suggest using Traveller's combat? I felt BH's system had a more Old West flavor to it. But sure, you could easily use Traveller for the whole system. It was, after all, meant to cover combat in a variety of technological settings (and even between tech settings).
And, Traveller's combat system is deadly, fitting in with the Old West theme.
Still, I like the way BH's system works a bit better, balancing speed and accuracy and toughness in a way that just feels right to me.
Re: More thoughts on a BH "clone"... « Reply #14 on Aug 20, 2012, 8:22am »
I agree with you on all your points. Was just pointing out our quick spitballs seem to be pointing in a CT direction. That's OK I guess, but CT is not OGL, so there might be problems.
I do like the combat system in 2ND ed, my preferred ed. I wonder if we could tweak the skill system with OGL and 3.x. Not real familiar with how the mechanics work on that, but lots of smart people here to point us in a direction.
Any interest in adding "classes" or "levels" to make skill system work better? I have some thoughts on that, not sure how it would work out though.
I may spend part of the day today looking into this.
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