Joined: Nov 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 101 Location: Great Underground Empire Karma: 2
Describing Castle Blackmoor « Thread Started on May 25, 2012, 10:16pm »
After recently receiving a copy of the FFC I realized there is no possible way I would ever be able to talk my players through Blackmoor Castle. Maybe I'm just not a very good Referee, but all these angles are hurting my eyes, how could anyone describe this place to their players, let alone in a way they could efficiently map it out?
Joined: Nov 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 171 Karma: 16
Re: Describing Castle Blackmoor « Reply #1 on May 25, 2012, 10:53pm »
I often have that problem with very complicated maps. I don't know how to get around it, really. Some of the best modules have maps that are very difficult to describe. I'll be interested to see what tips the pros have.
I often have that problem with very complicated maps. I don't know how to get around it, really. Some of the best modules have maps that are very difficult to describe. I'll be interested to see what tips the pros have.
This is when I use a dry-erase marker, just sketching out the "visibility" (torches, lamps, infravision, etc.) I have a "blank" paizo 1" square mat, that I scribble on as needed.
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
Joined: Jun 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 4,674 Location: Near Chicago Karma: 178
Re: Describing Castle Blackmoor « Reply #3 on May 26, 2012, 8:39am »
I often don't worry about details enough for players to map things out, but focus on the key stuff they need in order to visualize their options (doorways to exit, etc.). I scribble a picture on a notepad if they get too confused.
Actually, I like to have things less than orderly. I figure a party isn't going to spend hours surveying each room anyway, so why should I provide them with exact dimensions?
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
If memory serves, Greg Svensons group didn't map it out the first time, and got horribly lost. Maybe that is what is supposed to happen?
Yep the map is part of the challenge.
I use terms like dogleg and angles slightly/sharply, triangular and the like a lot. For parts that are too confusing I sketch it - but only as much as the characters can actually see. I don't find it very difficult and the players maps should be far from perfect anyway - it's not like they are surveying the place.
Joined: Jun 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 479 Location: Norway, Europe Karma: 8
Re: Describing Castle Blackmoor « Reply #6 on May 27, 2012, 5:26am »
For diagonal corridors, simply indicate where the corridor begins and ends. For oddly shaped rooms, I tend to give them the description of a rectangular big enough to cover the actual room and then tell them how it differs from such a room.
After recently receiving a copy of the FFC I realized there is no possible way I would ever be able to talk my players through Blackmoor Castle. Maybe I'm just not a very good Referee, but all these angles are hurting my eyes, how could anyone describe this place to their players, let alone in a way they could efficiently map it out?
Effectively mapping it out is not the point.
Let me rephrase that. Effectively mapping it out is the anti-point.
"A passage angles off, oh, about 45 degrees, you're not sure. How do you measure it?"
"Passage east. Ten feet, twenty feet, starts to curve north. Thirty feet, forty feet, it's curved about one point, fifty feet, sixty feet, about two points...."
The entire point was that it should be difficult to map.
OD&D was primarily a game of exploration and mapping because that's what you spent the vast majority of your time doing.
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
After recently receiving a copy of the FFC I realized there is no possible way I would ever be able to talk my players through Blackmoor Castle. Maybe I'm just not a very good Referee, but all these angles are hurting my eyes, how could anyone describe this place to their players, let alone in a way they could efficiently map it out?
Effectively mapping it out is not the point.
Let me rephrase that. Effectively mapping it out is the anti-point.
"A passage angles off, oh, about 45 degrees, you're not sure. How do you measure it?"
"Passage east. Ten feet, twenty feet, starts to curve north. Thirty feet, forty feet, it's curved about one point, fifty feet, sixty feet, about two points...."
The entire point was that it should be difficult to map.
OD&D was primarily a game of exploration and mapping because that's what you spent the vast majority of your time doing.
I understand this. But no matter how much the players enjoy mapping getting lost in confusingly angled rooms will get frustrating unless the DM has some sort of method of effectively describing them.
Joined: Jul 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 478 Karma: 37
Re: Describing Castle Blackmoor « Reply #9 on May 28, 2012, 12:18pm »
Hmm. I don't seem to be making myself clear.
The assumption was that the maps were primitive, crude affairs done by pre-industrial people using no tools other than parchment and pen. The maps were not supposed to be perfect, and neither Dave nor Gary gave anything more than general descriptions.
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
After recently receiving a copy of the FFC I realized there is no possible way I would ever be able to talk my players through Blackmoor Castle. Maybe I'm just not a very good Referee, but all these angles are hurting my eyes, how could anyone describe this place to their players, let alone in a way they could efficiently map it out?
The assumption was that the maps were primitive, crude affairs done by pre-industrial people using no tools other than parchment and pen. The maps were not supposed to be perfect, and neither Dave nor Gary gave anything more than general descriptions.
True, Michael, but "general descriptions" doesn't help a DM much who wants to describe a complex environment, even generally. I think that this lack of training for DMs on "how to describe a map" is part of why mapping is so unpopular among players* in general.
* Other reasons being that:
2) there's not much info given to players on how or why** to map, or the types of maps you can create and when to use which kind of map (exact maps, approximate maps, flow chart maps, trailing maps, description-only maps, etc.)
3) most published module maps were relatively simple compared to maps from 1977 and earlier
** other than the ubiquitous "so you don't get lost" or "so you can find your way back out" but if DMs don't get players lost and/or draw maps for the players, then these hazards lose a lot of their bite
Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 571 Location: NYC Karma: 34
Re: Describing Castle Blackmoor « Reply #12 on Jun 1, 2012, 11:03pm »
I also use the wipe-erase map to show players a little area of what they can see that would be hard to describe otherwise, and if they want to use that to make a larger map then more power to them. Some descriptions of experiences with Castle Blackmoor are here, and reflect the process of training myself in what maps are good for.
I also use the wipe-erase map to show players a little area of what they can see that would be hard to describe otherwise, and if they want to use that to make a larger map then more power to them. Some descriptions of experiences with Castle Blackmoor are here, and reflect the process of training myself in what maps are good for.
Good stuff, Tavis: definitely a great example of "so you can find your way back out"
After recently receiving a copy of the FFC I realized there is no possible way I would ever be able to talk my players through Blackmoor Castle. Maybe I'm just not a very good Referee, but all these angles are hurting my eyes, how could anyone describe this place to their players, let alone in a way they could efficiently map it out?
![[Home]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/home.gif "[Home]")
![[New Topics]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/topics.png "[New Topics]")
![[Help]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/help.gif "[Help]")
![[Search]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/search.gif "[Search]")
![[Login]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/login.gif "[Login]")
![[Register]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/register.gif "[Register]")
![[Search This Thread]](http://images.proboards.com/search2.gif "[Search This Thread]")
![[Share Topic]](http://images.proboards.com/new/buttons/share.png "[Share Topic]")
![[Print]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif "[Print]")
Author
![[avatar]](http://gameaxis.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/beware-the-dragon.jpg "[avatar]")
Logged![[avatar]](http://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/3632089479/384133a24f0d799205d632883fe0448e.jpeg "[avatar]")
![[homepage]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif "[homepage]")
![[avatar]](http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/finarvyn/avatar.jpg "[avatar]"){kind=avatar}
![[avatar]](http://www.jastabinksaviation.com/6614pf.JPG "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://blackmoor.mystara.us/img/55.png "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/images/estarsm.jpg "[avatar]")
