Joined: Oct 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 679 Location: Lille, France Karma: 45
The % layer of OD&D archaeology « Thread Started on Nov 10, 2009, 11:55am »
Oldschoolers generally don’t like d100, for an unknown reason, as OD&D is absolutely full of its use – and the “double 10-sided dice” is easier to use as d100 than as the iconic d20. Searching for the roots of the Arneson fighting system (see the thread on that issue), I was struck by the Dryad description, and had a look to other references of percentiles in the game which could suggest a “layer” of a game system which, as in a palimpsest, didn’t had be erased by Gygax final writing of the rules. I found some interesting clues :
- The % of survival with constitution (which looks to cap at 12, so fit best a 2d6 system).
- Feeblemind’s description, which says it has 20% more of success, then translate as +4 to save.
- Purple’s worm description (“Any hit which scores over 20% of the minimum total required to hit, or 100% in any case, indicates”), which can be translated with a d20, but looks like if the DM had to roll a d100 and do the best score.
- Dryads description (“they have a powerful Charm Person spell with a +10% chance of succeeding”).
- Ring of Mammal control (“The ring immediately begins to drain energy from the wearer, making him weaker at a rate of 10%/turn until a maximum of 50% is attained. This weakness is reflected in both attack and defense capabilities.”). There, it seems clear that % is used both for attack and defence.
- Displacer cloak (“It makes it 10% harder to hit its wearer, whether by smiting or Wand (add +2 to defense and saving throws”). It’s translated in d20 terms, but why have % if they’re not a part of the game?
- Maybe % of success with Dispel magic, which looks exactly like the Assassin table from Blackmoor I already quoted.
My suggestion is that :
- It existed a proto-version of the game which used d100 instead of d20.
- This version could have ask to roll “d100 over” a score. This suggestion is enforced by the use of this method in EPT, as James Maliszewski allready quoted in an article.
- Characters had % of attack and defence chances.
- Spells had chances of success (maybe a % conversion of Chainmail system), maybe rather than saves.
- Unlike EPT, it seems Abilities score where in 2d6 (an assumption which Jason use in S&S, and I use as well as E&S). The % of survival gives a clue on how the 2d6 ‘chainmail’ system translate into d100
- With these assumptions, we probably got the basis of the early % system from Arneson, and can link it to the quotes from Blackmoor (there are some suggestions about hit localization in OD&D as well) and from First Fantasy Campaign.
I’ll try later to put all these ideas in a draft version of proto-Blackmoor % system.
Joined: Oct 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,558 Karma: 87
Re: The % layer of OD&D archaeology « Reply #2 on Nov 10, 2009, 6:16pm »
Percentile dice are my favorite in OD&D. My favorite technique: Determining by DM fiat the percentage chance of X, then (myself or a player as appropriate) rolling the percentiles.
I must protest bitterly that my aircraft still has not been painted red.
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 1,596 Location: Schenectady Karma: 73
Re: The % layer of OD&D archaeology « Reply #3 on Nov 16, 2009, 12:18pm »
Great stuff Nic! You have probably thought of this, but one caution I would provide is that using a percentage in a rule doesn’t necessarily imply the use of percentile dice. Having just finished the playtest draft of my “Arnesonian” RPG, I found it sometimes convenient to write “there is a 50% chance of x” without meaning “ roll percentile dice”, rather assuming the referee would use a 1d6 or whatever they found convenient. Some of the quotes you mention could possibly fall in this convenient writing category. That said there is no doubt that you are on to something. It’s a fact that Arneson liked percentile dice, and that by the publication of Adventures in Fantasy in 1978 (only 6 years after the creation of Blackmoor) his game relied entirely on a “match or roll under” system using a range of 1-100 generated with 2 d20’s. I think for your project – and as an archaeologist you will appreciate this – a very important thing to keep in mind is relative dating, and what information applies to when. My impression, is that the percentile dice system you are looking for evolved in and applies to the 1974-76 period. Since Gygax used 3d6 for ability scores, and Svenson remembers them being 2d6 prior to the publication of OD&D, I suspect that Arneson had not yet switched all his Blackmoor mechanics over to percentile dice when cowriting D&D, but your research suggests that he was using it for some things, things which Gygax preferred to use more of the “funny dice” for so as to give them a broader role in the game. Probably Gygax thought all those novel dice would be a selling point for the game. I have not read Arnesons dice article in the hackmaster magazine, but it might contain important clues for when Arneson began using more than a d6 in Blackmoor. However, given what has already been discussed, a working hypothesis for the timeframe of evolution of Dave’s game mechanics can be summarized as:
1972 – 1-10 roll under system using 2d6. Arneson seems to be using 1-10 because of a preference for a decimal type system.
1973 – Beginning of use of “funny dice”. (probably not earlier). Probable early experimentation with use of percentile dice in Blackmoor.
1974 – OD&D published. Switch in Blackmoor from 1-10 roll under system to OD&D “Alternate” combat system and saving throw matrix.
1974 – 1975 Arneson continues experimentation with percentile dice developing a percentile based combat system for the assassin, hit location system, and other uses.
1977 Publication of First Fantasy Campaign. Continued development of Percentile based game mechanics for Blackmoor/Bleakwood game setting, specific mention of use of percentile dice in Blackmoor as well as numerous 1-100 tables.
1978 Publication of percentile based Adventures in Fantasy, which includes the setting of Bleakwood – originally a location in Blackmoor.
Personally, I find the method of generating percentages in AIF less than clear, “….roll two 20 sided dice and, reading one die first, write down the generated number from 01-100 (double zeros are 100 on this scale).” AIF page 2. This short sentence is basically all the explanation one gets for how to use 2d20 to generate 1-100 . I’m not sure exactly how teen numbers are to be handled. Perhaps Mr. Svenson remembers.
It is frequently said that Adventures in Fantasy (published just four years after OD&D) is what D&D would have been if Gary Gygax had not been in the picture. I think this is clearly false, as several aspects of the game are very different from play in early Blackmoor, - such as being characterless – and I’m sure this and other aspects of the game are very deliberate developments to make the game distinct. The magic system is probably the closest to early Blackmoor, but I think we have to look at the rest of the game as being a response to AD&D, with clues and bits of influence from 1972 – 74 Blackmoor. A cousin, in other words, not a direct descendant.
Personally, I find the method of generating percentages in AIF less than clear, “….roll two 20 sided dice and, reading one die first, write down the generated number from 01-100 (double zeros are 100 on this scale).” AIF page 2. This short sentence is basically all the explanation one gets for how to use 2d20 to generate 1-100 . I’m not sure exactly how teen numbers are to be handled. Perhaps Mr. Svenson remembers.
Back in the day, twenty-sided dice were numbered 0-9 twice, this means each d20 was basically a double d10. Gamers would use a marker to color half the sides so that one could distinguish between a result of 7 versus one of 17.
Therefore, one could interpret the Arneson quote as meaning the same thing as rolling two 10-siders to generate a number from 1-100.
Joined: Nov 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 1,554 Location: Austin TX USA Karma: 152
Re: The % layer of OD&D archaeology « Reply #5 on Nov 16, 2009, 1:03pm »
I keep rereading my above post, and though I know what I'm trying to say I'm not quite certain that meaning is coming through.
Basically, I'm saying the original twenty-siders could be used as either a d10 or a d20. One could therefore roll 2d20 to generate the same results as 2d10 used as d%, all you had to do was ignore the coloration (or lack thereof).
I keep rereading my above post, and though I know what I'm trying to say I'm not quite certain that meaning is coming through.
Basically, I'm saying the original twenty-siders could be used as either a d10 or a d20. One could therefore roll 2d20 to generate the same results as 2d10 used as d%, all you had to do was ignore the coloration (or lack thereof).
My head is about to explode.
That makes sense. I bought a boxed set of AIF that was cheaper due to shelf wear of the box, and there were no dice included. Still, seem odd to use d20's when they could have just put in d10's.
Ring of Mammal control (“The ring immediately begins to drain energy from the wearer, making him weaker at a rate of 10%/turn until a maximum of 50% is attained. This weakness is reflected in both attack and defense capabilities.”). There, it seems clear that % is used both for attack and defence.
I just wanted to add that I find this one especially convincing for snorri's argument. How do you take 10% of a 3-18 strength rating? Note there is nothing in that statement about rounding up or down. If one did round up for 15+ strength characters they would loose 2 points per turn when everyone else only loses one. Senseless. One would expect it to say something like 1 strength point per turn or some such for the 3-18 system. 10% per turn only makes sense if the ability score ranges from 0-100.
Joined: Oct 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 679 Location: Lille, France Karma: 45
Re: The % layer of OD&D archaeology « Reply #9 on Nov 16, 2009, 5:44pm »
That's a pity I can't find a copy od pdf of AIF to get the full comparison between the various layers, but I'm pretty sure it would be interesting.
I got some facts in my bag to bring in the discussion, but here's a curious one, I allready just mentionned. Look at the % of survival in OD&D and Revification chances in EPT:
The same could probaly be expanded more or less like this:
* With AD&D glasses, the meaning of these chances in OD&D ar pretty clear. But nothing in the text suggest it as such : "It will influence such things as the number of hits which can be taken and how well the haracter can withstand being paralyzed, turned to stone, etc." explains the description of Constitution.
* I allready suggested this number could be used as a Save, if you don't use the alternative system. But the fact it caps at 12 is a trouble with a 3d6 range [which is, for bell curve reasons, better anyway]. But with stats rolled with 2d6, they perfectly make sense...
I got some other reasons to suspect this, I'll explain later It would be really interesting to know precisely when the d20 (double d10) came into the market.
I'm slowly creating a pdf. of the AIF rules but since my wife gave birth to our second daughter last week, nobody better hold thier breath waiting on it. Oh, and actually Kesher, we are both archaeologists.
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It would be really interesting to know precisely when the d20 (double d10) came into the market. ![[avatar]](http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii55/akesher3/erolaxeAvatar.jpg "[avatar]"){kind=avatar}
