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Blackmoor campaign chronology « Thread Started on Nov 28, 2009, 7:33pm »
Christmas holidays 1970 First Blackmoor Session, with Chainmail rules. Wandering Monsters are allready there: “We could see Dave rolling before he would announce an encounter.” (GS/DB)
Beginning of 1971 “Using Chainmail rules on the first adventure, when you got hit the first time you were dead. We didn’t like that much, so the next time we played we had hit points. Within a month Dave introduced armor classes.” (GS/DB)
May 1971 First article about Blackmoor (GS/DB)
Spring of 1972 Abilities are used in Blackmoor. (GS/DB)
In the fall of 1972 “Dave Arneson gave me some of his notes and let me referee a couple of times when he was busy with other things” (GS/DB) “During the Fall of 1972 (…) shortly after Dave Arneson had introduced Blackmoor to Gary Gygax and the group in Lake Geneva, leading to the creation of Greyhawk. (OB)
1 November 1973 OD&D forward by Gary Gygax (GS/DB)
1973-1974 “I must have DMed more often than I remember from what Bob Meyer has told me about the days when we were roommates in 1973 & 1974” (GS/DB)
1974 (after release of OD&D) “The individual levels and things like that were new, but the way we played we didn’t really notice the difference. Attributes were different, we had used two d6’s to get a number from 1 to 10, where we changed to three d6’s and a range from 3 to 18, but most were just changes in mechanics...” (GS/DB)
1974-1976 At some point (probably in 1975 give or take a year) Uther granted many of his loyal servants their own fiefs. Since the original Blackmoor area was already occupied, the new fiefs were created in the south. An area we called "province one". Dave simply placed the map from Avalon Hill's "Outdoor Survival" game next to the Blackmoor map and showed us which hex had our new fief in it. (OB)
Between 1971 and 1975 “Temple of the Frog” and “Valley of the Ancients” adventure (GS/DB)
To be confronted to other sources... Some first impressions:
1) Greg Svenson had a limited access to the whole system, in late 1972. Probably he did use this system in 1973-74, bt Dave could have switched to the % layer during this time. It would fit our feeling that there's a 2d6 layer ("improved Chainmail") under the % one - and if so, we got a clue for the datation of these.
2) Dave adapted his game to the published version of D&D in early 1974 - at least partially (maybe the notes on differences in Blackmoor game from FFC reflect this).
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Re: Blackmoor campaign chronology « Reply #1 on Nov 28, 2009, 8:50pm »
Thanks for getting that all down to work from/around.
Chainmail wasn't in use at the start since it wasn't published then; nor is there any indication of the use of LGTSA rules (developing from July 1970 onwards), afaik, prior to that.
Where was that first article on Blackmoor published, out of interest? [edit: ah... "first documented Blackmoor game was on May 21, 1971"; not first article. OK... ]
Point of interest, only part covered; where/when/was there anything approaching the first proper /world/map for Blackmoor, as opposed to regional only/above-and-beyond RL based? Greyhawk wasn't really at /that/ stage until after mid-1976 at least, according to EGG, and the "probably in 1975 give or take a year" quote for expansion does rather fit that bill, too, for Blackmoor - but I'd thought the scope had gone far wider prior to that date with John Snider, for example, including Blackmoor in the "universe" of their SFRPG (pre-D&D timescale). Having stuck my neck out before to propose that Kalibruhn might actually have been the first gaming /world/ designed as such, I'm still not seeing anything to counter that.
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Re: Blackmoor campaign chronology « Reply #2 on Nov 28, 2009, 11:27pm »
This thread http://odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=blackmoor&action=display&thread=683 has a few details to add and stands as another reference point for most of the dates. Note especially these to quotes from Mr. Svenson: "Because you died when you were hit in Chainmail, we were using damage dice, hit dice and armor classes within about a month of our starting to play Blackmoor (winter of 1970-71)." "Dave Arneson tells me I was the third DM, after himself and Gary. I ran a adventure for Bill Heaton (the Blue Rider) and Mel Johnson (Mello) sometime during the fall of 1972 (nobody remembers exactly when) using Dave's notes. I built a city, called Tonisborg, complete with a dungeon and a network of catacombs, during 1973 and ran many adventures there and all around the Blackmoor area in 1973 and 1974 using the play test rules for the original three little books and then the published books."
We thought we were crazy, but we had a great time. - Dave Arneson
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Re: Blackmoor campaign chronology « Reply #3 on Nov 28, 2009, 11:49pm »
Regardless of recollection, Chainmail (named as such) wasn't in print then; March(?)/April 1971 for that, give-or-take, from the adverts but would need to cross-check again against reviews for a backstop date of actual publication.
Given that others' recollections have been +/- 1 year or even +/- 2 years or more, Greg does /relatively/ well from what I've read here and elsewhere where chronological synchronisms are available.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Regardless of recollection, Chainmail (named as such) wasn't in print then; March(?)/April 1971 for that, give-or-take, from the adverts but would need to cross-check again against reviews for a backstop date of actual publication.
Given that others' recollections have been +/- 1 year or even +/- 2 years or more, Greg does /relatively/ well from what I've read here and elsewhere where chronological synchronisms are available.
Reconsidering the chronology Mr. Svenson, Arneson and others have stated directly or otherwise alluded that Blackmoor began over Christmas break 1970/71. This may be a case of misremembering the year. Everyone agrees that Blackmoor began with the Chainmail rules – the fantasy rules in particular. According to the Aceum, the initial publication of the rules that became known as Chainmail, in the Castle and Crusades society newsletter occurred in 1970, but did not include the Fantasy Supplement rules. As David pointed out, these were not published until the summer of 1971. Hmmm. In all the interviews with Arneson that I’ve seen (or heard), exact times are not specified, but he definetly gives the impression that it was not long, a matter of months (not a year and a half), before he introduced the game to Gygax, reported by Gygax and others to have occurred in fall of 1972. If the creation of Blackmoor was in fact December of 1971, not 1970, it is far more consistent with this picture (about 9 months till Gygax learns of it), and fits the publication date of Chainmail. The Arneson interview in Pegasus #1 from Apr-May1981 seems to back this up too. : “Back in 1972 I started doing dungeon explorations with the local gamers, building up a set of rules as we went along. I kept track of my rule decisions in a big black notebook as we went along so I didn’t contradict myself too often. We were in correspondence with the group from Lake Geneva through the Napoleonic Campaigns at that time, so we mentioned that we were doing fantasy stuff on the alternate weekends and they became very interested in it. After I made several trips down there so they could go down in my dungeon, they became excited about it. At that time, they had a lot more spare time than I did and they had a lot of ideas, so they came up with their own version of the rules. They sent theirs to us and we fooled around with them for a while.” P5.
Reconsidering the chronology Mr. Svenson, Arneson and others have stated directly or otherwise alluded that Blackmoor began over Christmas break 1970/71. This may be a case of misremembering the year. Everyone agrees that Blackmoor began with the Chainmail rules – the fantasy rules in particular. According to the Aceum, the initial publication of the rules that became known as Chainmail, in the Castle and Crusades society newsletter occurred in 1970, but did not include the Fantasy Supplement rules. As David pointed out, these were not published until the summer of 1971. Hmmm. In all the interviews with Arneson that I’ve seen (or heard), exact times are not specified, but he definetly gives the impression that it was not long, a matter of months (not a year and a half), before he introduced the game to Gygax, reported by Gygax and others to have occurred in fall of 1972. If the creation of Blackmoor was in fact December of 1971, not 1970, it is far more consistent with this picture (about 9 months till Gygax learns of it), and fits the publication date of Chainmail.
A sensible line of enquiry and I'd run that apparent "long lead" question around my mind a good few years back and don't think at that stage I could pin down sufficient primary evidence to definitively prove the matter either way; or even the stated 1972 start date for D&D (in Lake Geneva). There are a few old posts over on the Acaeum relating to this, IIRC. The lead in from Wesley and the Domesday Book does, however, fit rather better with a winter 1970/71 start for Blackmoor and if Greg could dig out the precise context for the "first documented Blackmoor game being on May 21, 1971", that would be useful IMO.
aside: 1st edition Chainmail does contain the Fantasy Supplement rules contrary to Schick's assertion and hundreds of other derivative sources resulting from his book. My understanding that Arneson & co. picked up Chainmail when it was published and decided there wasn't a great deal more of use in that, generally laying it aside, does not preclude his claim (ironically in Heroic Worlds) regarding its influence being "in the development of the Original D&D rules was in the Combat Matrix only" since that particular aspect has its origins in Domesday Book #7 (September 1970) as far as I can see (and perhaps reworking from that irregular 2d6, roll under format therein after the first few initial combat simulation attempts with rock, paper, and scissors, etc.). I don't know about Dave Arneson's copy of Chainmail but John Snider's certainly doesn't look as if it was used much (or at all) during play - and I understand that was "on the table" during the original Blackmoor campaign - whereas his (early) 1st edition D&D books have multiple annotations, extra monsters written in, beverage and ink stains, etc. Would also be interesting to see if that can indeed be made to fit the "abandoned the chainmail combat system after the first three games in 1971" quote, too, since that's perhaps difficult to reconcile with going back(?) to 2d6, roll under and/or, again, a potentially problematic year being quoted.
Apologies in advance for any obvious oversights: a bit of a dash just now and more than slightly under the weather.
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Re: Blackmoor campaign chronology « Reply #7 on Dec 1, 2009, 5:47pm »
A lot of interesting ideas there! I'll correct the chronology as soon as possible. her what I did today, having a long travel by train (and without seeing the last posts here). It's an attempt to understand the inner chronology of the FFC. I got more ideas I'll post in the few next days, and some interssting little discoveries. I hope my notes are not too cryptic, but it should help the discussion. My pages numbers refers to the 1980 pagination.
1971 Blackmoor Castle level 7+ (p. 33-35)
1971-1973
Richard Snider’s addition – possibly [if so, he may have provided the dragons rule first, but it seems Dave adapted it to the new rules in 1977.
- The ‘differences in creatures” (p. 57) and the “loch Gloomen” (p. 59) are grounded in Chainmail and can’t be post-1974 – they could be older. The Dragon’s table (p. 61), with dragons having 4d6 hits, seems even older. Notes like “Swords 7+4 should be studied carefully, as well as the subduing dragons p. 61).
Orcs and other monsters descriptions (p. 62-63)
1972
Use of the Outdoor survival map (p. 23). Probable inclusion of the OS rules. - Encounter matrix (use of d20, but on the Judge side only, so it seems possible ; apart the various human types (bandits, nomads, pirates), it fits perfectly the Chainmail list of creatures (at least the 3d version one – to be verified).
- First evasion table (to be compared with the D&D one)
- Map movement (to compare with OS)
Maybe the p. 24 price list, to be studied more carefully
1973
Blackmoor, the campaign (tables, including prices) - 1974+ (ie, after publication of D&D)
Blackmoor, the campaign : Internal investments subsection could have been modified (mention of a d4 and of silver pieces, p. 9) ; Hunting, Armories and Animal Breeding quotes D&D (p. 10) ; Farming (mention of a d4, p. 10) – probably the whole economical section. The Land and sea trade subsection provide no evidence about their datatation.
Blackmoor, the campaign : Price list (p. 11), should be compared to the earlier one – the price for slaves no vary according to their strength (males) or charisma (females).
Magic sword matrix [use of funky dices – to be discussed, as it’s possible the table of swords, which link to the code numbers in the Blackmoor castle, could be more ancient than the tables].
Gypsy sayings and chances cards (unless some cards have been modified o fit with funky dices. Tarns appears apparently end in 1972).
1975+ use of supplements
Blackmoor, the campaign: Religion, mentions paladins, clerics and patriarchs.
Blackmoor Castle levels 1-6 (p. 28 and 30-32) [but its keep tracks of an earlier material, as shows the wizards in armor and strange AC pattern]. Special interest (at least the table. The full text, with its criticism of D&D experience system, is at least post-1974.
1976
Patterns of aera (p. 27), with druids and assassin.
1977 Bob Bledsaw’s Forward
Dave Arneson’s Introduction
Blackmoor, the campaign (introduction and editing notes)
Campaign map notes (with references about dungeon-delving in 1975-1977)
Blackmoor’s More infamous Characters (editing notes and final redaction – but the material seems coming from an older material)
Blackmoor, facts about Blackmoor (maybe from earlier notes, but mostly remembering and anecdotes)
Blackmoor town map (anecdotes)
Original Blackmoor system (p. 50), but clearly refers to what was practiced. Interesting note about Constitution.
How to become a bad guy? [but it explain earlier procedures, without date]. Maybe the “proto-rules” manuscript, which includes part of FFC which seems to have been written as a rule set. Includes: Outdoor of Blackmoor (p. 25) ; Migration (p. 25); Drawing you own map (p. 26) [this part seems to use funky dices, as 1-4 and 1-8 scales appears, but this may be later chances – it seems to have been mainly wrote with ‘percentile dice’ and d6]
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Re: Blackmoor campaign chronology « Reply #8 on Dec 13, 2009, 9:44pm »
Looking for something else, naturally, I stumbled on two bits of information that may confuse the picture somewhat but at least provide some more clues to chase down for the chronology. First is this quote from http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgamedesigner/574/david-r-megarry : (note they year)
"David R. Megarry originally invented the classic TSR game Dungeon! in 1971. Remarkably, the board game is arguably an ancestor of Dungeons and Dragons, although he got his idea from Dungeons and Dragons co-creator Dave Arneson Blackmoor adventure map. His game idea was rejected by all of the established game publishers including Milton Bradley, Parker Brothers, Avalon Hill, and SPI until TSR bought it from him for 7.5% of their company stock after Dungeons and Dragons had already hit the market."
"I want to thank all of you for the kind words about my good friend Dave Arneson.
Having read a lot of web comments in the last few days, I keep seeing one thing that bothers me, so I'm going to try to correct it: D&D was not descended from Chainmail, though a lot of the obit writers think it was. The sequence is: 1) After a few years of running multiplayer historical role playing campaigns, Dave starts up Blackmoor his medieval, fantasy RPG in MAY 1971. 2) When his players complain that the hand-to-hand combat rules he is using are poor, he grabs a copy of Chainmail - which has no fantasy suppliment at that time 3) At Gencon, in AUG 1971, he shows Blackmoor to Gary. Gary starts up Greyhawk and they start exchanging ideas on how to improve the campaigns. 4) In 1972 Gary adds the Fantasy suppliment to Chainmail, making it a lot more useful in the two campaigns. 5) David R. Megarry, a player in Blackmoor, invents the boardgame DUNGEON. He cannot find a publisher for it, but plays it with Arneson, who he credits for inspiration. At the same time, Arneson credits Megarry for having identified the unique possibilities in the dungeon crawl as a game mechanism that he had not. The Dungeon becomes the dominant place to play the game. 6) Arneson and Gygax create the D&D rules and look for a publisher 7) Gygax risks everything he owns to start G&K Enterprises, with his friend Don Kaye. G&K products are called Tactical Studies Rules, and include a new game - D&D 8) Don dies, and G&K becomes TSR, Inc. 9) TSR publishes Greyhawk and Blackmoor as campaign supplimetnts to D&D 10) TSR publishes DUNGEON A lot of people get confused because the publication dates of these D&D ancestors after the date for D&D; but those are just the order they were published in, not the order they were invented in.
I will be at the viewing (on the 20th) and the funeral (on the 21st) and I hope to see all of you there. When I visited Dave in the hospital the Saturday night before he died, he said he wanted us to all have a good time seeing him off. So folks, if you can get here, come on up, be polite, say good bye, and be happy.
-Dave Wesely"
What really jumps out at me here is that Wesely is saying that Gygax was inspired to creat the Fantasy supplement after exposure to Arnesons Blackmoor. Huh. We really need to get our chronolgy firmed up.
What really jumps out at me here is that Wesley is saying that Gygax was inspired to creat the Fantasy supplement after exposure to Arnesons Blackmoor.
Unfortunately Wesley's chronology is undermined by repeating the factual error stating that the Fantasy Supplement was not in 1e Chainmail.
The May 1971 date tallying with the "first documented Blackmoor game" rather than the earlier winter 1970/71 is an interesting coincidence, though.
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Re: Blackmoor campaign chronology « Reply #11 on Dec 18, 2009, 5:22am »
A question to try to solev the chronological problem of the first Blackmoor. As far as I understand, Dave Arneson intended to play a "middle-age Braunstein" in the C&C society setting. The name of Blackmoor, associating a color and a lanscape, like the Brown-Stein (Braunstein), could even be a reference about that (even if it gives a Shakespearian mood). So, couldn't he have developped the basis of his Braunstein / Blackmoor with the DB7, then added the fantasy aspects a few months later, when he get the 1st Chainmail print? It would solve the chornological gap. Dave, any advice on that hypothesis?
A question to try to solev the chronological problem of the first Blackmoor. As far as I understand, Dave Arneson intended to play a "middle-age Braunstein" in the C&C society setting. The name of Blackmoor, associating a color and a lanscape, like the Brown-Stein (Braunstein), could even be a reference about that (even if it gives a Shakespearian mood). So, couldn't he have developped the basis of his Braunstein / Blackmoor with the DB7, then added the fantasy aspects a few months later, when he get the 1st Chainmail print? It would solve the chornological gap. Dave, any advice on that hypothesis?
Just seconding you Snorri as I'm wondering much the same. Sniders statement about a period of "experimentation" fits a "slow start" from 1970. It's also interesting that Dave talks about using a German model of a Sicilian castle to represent the Castle of Blackmoor. Although Arneson has said the players thought they were doing a Napoleonic battle in a Polish castle they "soon learned" that they would be going into a dungeon. Its possible that the castle was a more than a prop for the dungeon those first few games, and the monsters just a couple vilans inspired from the Horror movies he'd watched. If the first Blackmoor games was a classic dungeon crawl with Chainmail monsters, the castle wouldn't have much use, but if it was a kind of miniatures game with individual heroes and vilans, ala Braunstein, maybe the castle played a larger role in first battles/plots. Arneson does say in the FFC they very quickly moved beyond the dungeon, into the surrounding countryside.
Edit: I mistakenly remembered Dave Wesely mentioning this, but it was actually Mike Mornard. Here is the exact quote. "Just before I came along to the bunch (1971) there was a medieval miniatures battle up in Minneapolis. By his own words, Dave Arneson said he didn't like medieval miniatures, so he threw in Godzilla as a dragon.
So, everybody said, "Hey, let's do dragon rules." And since Tolkien was enjoying his first mass market popularity, everybody figured, "Hey, let's do orcs and goblins and elves and Ents and Balrogs and, and, and..."
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Re: Blackmoor campaign chronology « Reply #13 on Dec 18, 2009, 3:15pm »
Dave Wesely should be easy to reach for queries - he's posted at the Acaeum and at the Ars Ludi blog. I had the pleasure of meeting him at Gen Con two years ago & attending the lecture he gave about Braunstein; although I don't remember the details enough to help, I can say for sure that he's full of fascinating information and happy to talk about it.
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Re: Blackmoor campaign chronology « Reply #14 on Dec 18, 2009, 11:04pm »
The material in FO#2 Gives us some more clues regarding chronology and the Chainmail ruleset.
Svenson tells us “Other members of the group had played the game before, but always doing adventures around the town of Blackmoor.”
In the Arneson interview we have: FO! Greg Svenson mentions in his account of the first dungeon adventure (just above – Ig) that you had been running games in and around the town of Blackmoor before that historic game. Do you have any recollection of those early wargame-like dungeon scenarios? DA Pretty straightforward in those days. Kill the monsters, steal the gold. And some convoluted, impossible story line. Hey, we were all learning.
Arneson and the players often remember that there were monsters in Chainmail that made their way into Blackmoor. They also remember that they started off with the Chainmail combat rules and the Chainmail monsters. Memories being what they are, its not impossible that the remembering of when monsters from Chainamail entered the game is being confused with when the Chainmail combat rules were used. Indeed it would have to be the case in xmas 1970 since the fantasy supplement had not been published – unless Arneson had some kind of advance copy that included the Fantasy Supplement, but if he did its curious that Arneson never mentioned it. Fortunately we have a very detailed record of the first Blackmoor dungeon adventure ever from Mr Svenson – the Great Svenny. Svenny encounters only 4 “monsters”
a black blob “like the thing in the classic Japanese horror movie The Blob from the 1950’s” a beautiful woman who seduces, turns into a snake and then kills. an evil wizard a balrog
Note that the first two (50% of those encountered) are definitely not Chainmail monsters. I think the “evil wizard” was a players character Arneson took over and the balrog could have easily been plucked straight out of Tolkien. In other words, Svensons encounters seem very un fantasy supplement in nature and lend credence to the earlier, xmas 1970 date.
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