Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: YAD&DC? « Reply #30 on Jun 11, 2011, 7:05am »
This thread has gotten somewhat off of the original topic.
The debate shouldn't be "do we need another" game, because that's not the topic at all. I believe that the topic is "this game (Delving Deeper) is almost ready to be released." I don't think that Brave Halfling needs to defend releasing its own game any more than anyone else has to. The game will live or die based on how well it's written and how it deals with gaming elements that folks like, and sales or lack of sales will determine if we "needed" it or not.
Fundamentally, Brave Halfling wanted a game 100% under the control of BHG. John chose not to pursue an existing game but to create a new one. Not much to argue about, really.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
crusssdaddy Level 5 Thaumaturgist member is offline
Joined: Nov 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 329 Karma: 20
This thread has gotten somewhat off of the original topic.
The debate shouldn't be "do we need another" game, because that's not the topic at all. I believe that the topic is "this game (Delving Deeper) is almost ready to be released." I don't think that Brave Halfling needs to defend releasing its own game any more than anyone else has to. The game will live or die based on how well it's written and how it deals with gaming elements that folks like, and sales or lack of sales will determine if we "needed" it or not.
Fundamentally, Brave Halfling wanted a game 100% under the control of BHG. John chose not to pursue an existing game but to create a new one. Not much to argue about, really.
The author of Delving Deeper created this thread and he named it 'Yet Another D&D Clone?', and he began it by asking in boldface "Does the market need another OD&D clone?"... so I can't say I agree that the thread has gone off topic.
My argument isn't that it's all the same or that it should be restricted to one or two flagship products... but it is beginning to feel very much the same, and 8-10 subtly competing products is feeling like very many. No one here seems to share my opinion, but I hold to it. No big deal for any of us, is it?
My argument isn't that it's all the same or that it should be restricted to one or two flagship products... but it is beginning to feel very much the same, and 8-10 subtly competing products is feeling like very many. No one here seems to share my opinion, but I hold to it.
Actually, I know exactly where you are coming from on this. I have felt like we are getting a saturation in the market for a while now. I'm not sure what "the answer" is for this. I used to buy every clone or retro game I could get my hands on but, as you noted, the market has exploded with variant games which are all quite similar. I can't keep up with them any more and in general I'm not sure I want to.
The same thread under "general" or "simulacrum" wouldn't have bothered me at all. I just felt that the discussion seemed to be counterproductive for a Brave Halfling thread, since BHG is producing Delving Deeper.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
No one here seems to share my opinion, but I hold to it.
Actually, I share this opinion. This is why I chose to write that post in the first place. I wanted gamers to know why, in a market with a variety of clones already available, I chose to write a new one.
To clarify: I feel the primary reason to publish a clone, no matter the system, is to recreate a specific set of rules. Judging from the rules published so far, it is obvious that not everyone thinks this way but I thought it important everyone understood that this was not to produce a better version of an old game but the desire to reproduce a great game. This version in question is IMO the best edition of the game and, in his latter years, the fellow who wrote OD&D and OAD&D felt the same way. When he wasn't running his non-TSR game LA, he usually TLBB OD&D with a very short list of house rules that can be found right here on this board.
In addition to the above statement about a specific recreation of a specific version of the game, there is also another reason. Though I've also stated it upthread I'll briefly repeat it here: BHP wanted a clone it controlled. This need I will not expand upon but John has his reasons and I agree with them.
The same thread under "general" or "simulacrum" wouldn't have bothered me at all. I just felt that the discussion seemed to be counterproductive for a Brave Halfling thread, since BHG is producing Delving Deeper.
My apologies, Finarvyn. I just though a brief and well considered answer to the question of why BHP is publishing another clone to be most appropriate here.
Feel free to move or even lock the thread if you feel it is appropriate. No hard feelings from me.
Re: YAD&DC? « Reply #35 on Jun 11, 2011, 12:26pm »
I've said this before, and maybe my perceptions are wrong, but I think it bears further consideration so I want to say it again. I think at least a decent portion of the root source of complaint from people who are saying we have too many clones can be roughly boiled down to feeling pressure to "keep up". I've never really seen anyone else articulate it this way, but what I mean by this is that just a few years ago there were few enough clones and few enough modules and other resources that any person could easily keep up and probably buy them all without too much hit to the wallet (or use of time tracking it all down). At this point it is very difficult.
The wider OSR as we know it today has become a community which is based on a foundation of bloggers, and to a lesser extent forums. There has been a sense of camaraderie and mutual support for everyone's efforts. It used to be possible to give your support (not just monetary, but also emotional) to about all of the various efforts going on, but that isn't the case anymore.
What I'm trying to say is that I think people are feeling "support fatigue," but no one should, as we move forward from now on, feel obligated to support every effort (not even existing efforts like Labyrinth Lord, just so no one takes me the wrong way). It just can't be done. There will be more and more "clone" games as we move along, and you just can't high-five everyone even if you want to. People take satisfaction from releasing their own game, even if it amounts to D&D with house rules. And I think that is ok. But by no means do you have to pay any attention.
None of what I've just said is directed specifically at Delving Deeper. I think DD does fill a particular niche. The water is already muddied because S&W was advertised from the beginning as something it's not (or at least wasn't at that time). If it had been put in its proper context in the beginning we might have a different idea about what niches remain. But that is all water under the bridge. No one is obligated to care about DD, it's going to be Brave Halfling's job to make you care. If they are successful, and I believe they will be, then DD will be the next new game to stick around. If not, then it will fade into obscurity. Hell, every single clone game around right now may fade into obscurity, to the extent they are even known about to the wider offline world anyway.
The same thread under "general" or "simulacrum" wouldn't have bothered me at all. I just felt that the discussion seemed to be counterproductive for a Brave Halfling thread, since BHG is producing Delving Deeper.
My apologies, Finarvyn. I just though a brief and well considered answer to the question of why BHP is publishing another clone to be most appropriate here.
Sigh. Again I'm not as articulate as I ought to be.
I shouthedn't have said that the thread ought not be in the BHG section (since clearly it belongs here). What I meant was that the direction that the thead took (by page 2 or so) had become different and had become more of a general discussion. Your OP was fine, your reasons for the OP are clear and fine, but to me we were no longer discussing Delving Deeper specifically but "should there be more" in general.
I solidly support BHG and DD and what you are doing to write John a game system that he wants for his company.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Oct 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 324 Karma: 13
Re: YAD&DC? « Reply #39 on Jun 12, 2011, 10:36pm »
Hang on, 'back in the day' there were literally dozens of clones floating about and not all of them shared common rules so that may have really muddied the water. I don't really see how the current situation is different or wrong. Stick to the kernel of D&D and we're all more or less playing the same game. Surely?
BTW. They weren't originally referred to as clones, back then they called them 'rip offs'.
BTW. They weren't originally referred to as clones, back then they called them 'rip offs'.
But on the other hand, the fact that they weren't attempting to preserve out-of-print editions of a game meant that they were distinct from the current batch of actual clones. Of course, the large number of each is the result of the same behind-the-scenes forces: the need to legally differentiate oneself from the source of inspiration and the desire to interpret ambiguous rules in terms of one's own play-style. But there's that added preservationist instinct for the current batch of clones that's missing from the older "rip-offs".
As for the original post, I'm actually becoming somewhat more interested in Delving Deeper. I'm working on my own LBB clone (Liber Zero,) but frankly I would have loved to have presented the original rules missing from other clones as a supplement to one of the clones; but too much needs to be changed, or there are additional licensing requirements I don't feel comfortable with. So maybe I'll check out DD; if it doesn't meet my needs, either... well, there will be Yet Another D&D Clone.
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