Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 293 Karma: 21
Re: Woodland Warriors « Reply #1 on Feb 27, 2011, 9:07pm »
Is there any way to get a .doc or .rtf or even a pdf of the file? My computer gets cramps when it tries to download and convert a docx file. (yes, it's a pretty old computer...)
Joined: Sept 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 208 Karma: 15
Re: Woodland Warriors « Reply #3 on Feb 28, 2011, 5:11pm »
Here is some of the text from the notes of The Stonewell Abbey campaign I made to go in the book:
THE STONEWELL ABBEY CAMPAIGN
Stonewell Abbey The Abbey was built by Abbot Ariella about 50 years ago on the ruins of an old fort, believed to be hundreds of years old. There are rumours that there were tunnels or dungeons underneath the building that Ariella had sealed up.
The Abbey is currently under repair to the N.E corner, which was destroyed by fire in an attack by a horde of rats, under the Rat-Chief Glorbane, about 5 years ago.
The Abbey has three villages (Stonewell, Rumblewood and Stormhollow), and a number of farmsteads, mills and quarries under its protection.
Important positions in the Abbey Abbot: The venerable Abbot Camber (a scholarly Otter), is the head of the Abbey at present. He has been the Abbot for ten years, being promoted from his position as Prior after the death of Abbot Caddum (who followed Ariella)..
Prior: The current Prior (the Abbot’s second-in-command) is Prior Noona, a female badger. She came into the position a few years ago when the previous Prior left to found the new Abbey at Mistmoor.
Archivist: The Archivist (who is the chief scribe and librarian) is a mouse called Machin.
Cellarer: The cellarer is responsible for the food and drink at the Abbey. The Cellarer is a rather portly but kindly female vole called Olive. She says she sometimes hears noises through the wall behind some of the shelves where the blackberry wine is stored. Most beasts think she has been drinking too much of her blackberry wine.
Guardian: The Guardian is in charge of the warrior-monks at the Abbey. His main job is the defence of the Abbey and its environs. Currently, Stonewell Abbey’s Guardian is a tough old hedgehog called Bowser who took over the position after Noona was promoted.
Herbalist: A rat called Dunstable is the Abbey’s Herbalist. He is a quiet little rat that was found as a baby outside the Abbey and brought up within its walls. He quickly took to learning about plants and herbs and knows more than anyone else in the Abbey about the medicinal properties of plants.
Infirmarian: A squirrel called Florence is in charge of the infirmary.
Plot Seeds There are several deaths at Stonewell. After investigation, it seems that the flour has been poisoned and as this is used to bake bread, cakes, pies and tarts both for the Abbey and for sale in the village, there is rumour of a poisoner on the loose. Dunstable immediately falls under suspicion because he is a rat and knows about poisons. Several friars have already made their feelings known about having a rat in the Abbey.
Olive has been found lying on the floor of her cellar, injured and apparently paralysed. She has been taken to the infirmary and is receiving medical attention. There is a hole in the walled-up area behind the blackberry wine racks; it seems to lead to a dark open area or chamber behind, where some scratching or scrabbling can be heard. Bowser has locked the doors to the cellars and now needs some volunteers to go in and investigate the hole.
Stonewell Environs Murkenhill Fort: Lord Tredegar, a Badger. He has built his fort here, to defend Stonewell against the evil rats from the Northern Reaches.
Important positions Armourer: Kemble, a mole
Lizard-Master: Tadgell, a hedgehog
Sergeant-At-Arms: Cullin, a toad. Cullin is an oddball. He came up to the fort one day and told Lord Tredegar that he’d be making a mistake if he didn’t employ him straight away. Tredegar saw this rather squat, rather ugly, boggle-eyed figure in ill-fitting armour staring up at him and laughed. He suggested that if the toad could beat one of his best warriors, he could have a job. Cullin beat his opponent easily and joined Tredegar’s force. He proved time and time again to be a brave and loyal soldier; once saving Lord Tredegar’s life in the Third Battle of Fellmarsh. It was this action that saw Cullin promoted to his side as Sergeant-At-Arms.
Cullin: Warrior, Level 4, 3HD, HP 11, AC 7 (plate & shield), Spear D6
Scout-Master: Fionna, a squirrel
Stonewell: The nearest village, just within bow range of the walls of the Abbey. Reeve Fedwina, a Squirrel.
Rumblewood: A nearby village, the Reeve is Welwyn, a Hare
Stormhollow: A nearby village, the Reeve is Telfer, a Mole
Murkenhill: Murkenhill is the northern border of the Stonewell Environs. It marks the point where hordes of rats come pouring down the Murkenhill valley into the Environs to pillage and plunder.
Skalleren Woods: Dark woods where it is believed evil things lurk. Hedgehogs sometimes go into the woods to hunt serpents and they have reported seeing ancient ruins deep into the woods.
Mistmoor Abbey: The Abbey and Environs founded by Abbot Cindran, who was previously the Prior at Stonewell
Love the background. Don't suppose a may exists yet?
Thinking of taking this to Concrete Cow in a couple weeks.
- Neil.
I'm glad you like the background. I'm still working on it but its coming together nicely. I'm looking for someone whose good at hand-drawn maps too, so if anyone knows anyone who can help?
I don't understand the question though. A may? Please help...
Otherwise Concrete Cow would be good - let me know if you need the latest version of the rules before then.
There are a couple of changes:
1) I've dropped all varieties of leather armour, for obvioius reasons...instead I have added quilted cloth 2) 6 is no longer an automatic hit 3) You can now exchange a HD for a +1 to hit (as long as you have 2 or more HD)
Anyone else looked through? Have any questions? Ready for more? Don't give a stuff?
Joined: Jan 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 233 Location: Gloucestershire, UK Karma: 10
Re: Woodland Warriors « Reply #7 on Mar 1, 2011, 12:19pm »
Awesome! The first game I ever wrote was a redwall skirmish game. I was probably about 10. Just dug out the manuscript again. Turns out it wasn't very good. But there were some ideas there. I might have to have a play with it again. The main problem I had was getting hold of figures. Impossible to get anything useful in the UK. The US does have these though, which might be worth bearing in mind for you:
"If you like the idea of Blackadder II and Kit Marlowe getting drunk and fighting cultists and Spaniards in the London sprawl then check this baby out" - Jeff Rients
Awesome! The first game I ever wrote was a redwall skirmish game. I was probably about 10. Just dug out the manuscript again. Turns out it wasn't very good. But there were some ideas there. I might have to have a play with it again. The main problem I had was getting hold of figures. Impossible to get anything useful in the UK. The US does have these though, which might be worth bearing in mind for you:
Really like what you've done there. Particularly the saving throws based on attributes. And the fact that everything is a d6.
I take it you just use the S&W spell list?
It's a shame I'd have no hope in hell of ever getting my players to try this
Love the critter minis! Like I need more minis...
Yeah, I decided early on I wanted everything to be done on D6. it took a bit of thinking out, especially relative to attacks with such a small range of numbers but I hope I got it - playtesting will tell.
I'm working through the spells now...I'm thinking largely S&W, but there may be a few changes here and there
I'm glad you like the background. I'm still working on it but its coming together nicely. I'm looking for someone whose good at hand-drawn maps too, so if anyone knows anyone who can help?
I don't understand the question though. A may? Please help...
Otherwise Concrete Cow would be good - let me know if you need the latest version of the rules before then.
There are a couple of changes:
1) I've dropped all varieties of leather armour, for obvioius reasons...instead I have added quilted cloth 2) 6 is no longer an automatic hit 3) You can now exchange a HD for a +1 to hit (as long as you have 2 or more HD)
Anyone else looked through? Have any questions? Ready for more? Don't give a stuff?
The latest version would be great. I'll PM you my email address.
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,327 Location: New Hope, MN Karma: 93
Re: Woodland Warriors « Reply #10 on Mar 1, 2011, 3:34pm »
Okay, so, lunch didn't work out. So, I'm just gonna jump in while I have a few minutes to spare; please forgive any disorganization!
Firstly, congratulations on taking a big step forward on a genre rather unrepresented in the OSR, and thanks for sharing a work in progress!
Stuff that's awesome
Serving the Good This concept rocks! It actually, in one fell swoop, dissolved years (nay, decades!) of angst around how to view ODD clerics. I'd suggest pairing Good with Wicked (which you use a couple of times in the text) instead of Evil; maybe it's just me, but it seems to fit the genre better. Weasels and rats seem more Wicked than Evil.
Abbeys Another great concept, basing everyone out of an Abbey with its own cast of NPCs. I don't know if you're familiar with Mouse Guard, but it's a similar conceit that helps hold the whole thing together. Otherwise it's kind of hard for me to picture wandering adventurer animals in a "normal" ODD vein.
D6 resolution On paper, it looks like it'll work really well. It's obvious that you really thought about the forest as opposed to just the trees. I also like how that resolution's tied right into attributes.
The Kind A great term for them (though I beg you to excise 'critters' wherever it now exists in the text), as opposed to race or species. They've got some great, simple differentiators built in (Badger rage, Hedgehog snake-hunting, etc.)
Level limits A perfect idea for this genre, which is not really 'heroic' in scope. I also like, adhering to ODD tropes, that each class has a 6th level or 'endgame' goal. Well, except Scouts---they need something too! How about founding a Scout Brotherhood? Sort of like a rangerish knightly order?
Stuff I have thoughts and questions about
Combat As it stands right now (and I haven't tried any sample resolutions), it seems to me like combat's going to be pretty lethal. This stems both from it being not too difficult to score multiple hits, especially as characters gain levels, and the fact that each hit does full weapon damage. I suppose, conversely, it could also supply the odd and frustrating effect of scoring three or four hits and only doing three or four points of damage. Oh, and also, as written, it looks like HPs will be much lower than an average ODD character at a similar level.
My immediate thought was to give each class a set HP total at first level, add a bonus or penalty from Kind, and then each level they add 1 or 2 more HP (either by just assigning it or rolling a d6 as a d2). Weapons could also have a set damage amount, or be just slightly variable.
Scale As it stands, this is where I think the most clarity is needed. It's really unclear to me exactly how big these animals are supposed to be compared to each other and the world. Without any human presence, it seems important to nail that down.
I've only read one Redwall novel, and that was probably 15 years ago, but isn't there some sort of human presence in that world? Maybe not... Anyhow, if I played this, I'd be inclined to go the Mouse Guard route and have the animals exist at their normal scale, both to each other and world, but without any human intrusion (or at least not until an apocalyptic campaign ender!) If you look at the Winter Issues of Mouse Guard, there're some great scenes with some of the Guard riding on Hares, in partnership (sorta like how it seems you're imagining lizards.)
Challenge Levels and XP I'm really confused by this. I simply couldn't figure out how you were coming up with Challenge Levels or XP awards. How does the eagle end up with CL of 12/XP 2,000, and a wolf is only CL 4/XP 120? They've the same AC and almost the same HD, and wolves travel in packs! Also, sometimes you seem to be using "HDE" instead of Challenge Level, though I assume they mean the same thing.
Again, I know it's a rough draft, but that example, as well as others, really had me scratching my head. I'd love to see some guidelines for assigning CL/XP so I could make up my own creatures, too.
OKAY--that's it for now. I need to get back to work!
I'm really looking forward to this developing, and I'll play-test it if at all possible.
Joined: Sept 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 208 Karma: 15
Re: Woodland Warriors « Reply #11 on Mar 1, 2011, 4:35pm »
Serving the Good...
I'm glad you got this. I was really trying to get away from alignments and serving the Good (linked in with the "Kind") was really integral to it. I am working from a .doc of S&W, so as I tinker with where S&W jars with my concept, it should become more integrated. Wicked - yeah, I'd thought about that (and then forgot about it) - so I'll be changing that now. There is still Evil - the Undead are evil.
The Kind...
As above. I'm also going to refer to shrews, rats, weasels, crows and so on as "Vermin". Other beasts are simply beasts (and are generally Good but could be Wicked)
Level limits...
I wondered about Scouts, but saw them more as loners. However, I'll give that a bit more thought.
Combat: ...
Overall, the combat is of the most concern to me too. I'm dying to get some playtesting in. I have changed it a bit from the first draft, so I'll upload the latest version in a while.
Hits do do variable damage (D6 for a sword, for example) - am I not clear enough in the text?
With regard to hits - I was desparate to tie HD for hit points and HD for attacks together, so there was essentially only one number to remember. We'll have to see how this works out. I did want average pcs to be lower in "power" than the average ODD character though.
Scale... There are no humans (and nor are there any in Redwall that I know of - I haven't finished all the books, but I've read quite a few). I'm not so sure I need to talk too much about scale - it gets worrying when a mouse is using a sword that is the size of a pin, compared to a rabbit whose sword would probably be the size of a kitchen knife (in "reality"). Stonewell mice a bigger than "real" mice and all creatures are much nearer in size to each other than in reality. Thats about as much as I feel I should say otherwise the scale becomes too much of an issue.
Challenge Levels and XP...
Sorry - I accidentally left that in from S&W. I found the S&W monster that I thought would be Stonewells closest analogy (Orcs=Rats, for example) and then tinkered with the stats to suit. I didn't change challenge levels/XP levels though. 'll purge that from the next draft and work out some proper guidelines. No wonder you were scratching your head!
Cheers for looking and for the useful feedback. I'll crack on...
Joined: Jan 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 233 Location: Gloucestershire, UK Karma: 10
Re: Woodland Warriors « Reply #12 on Mar 1, 2011, 6:36pm »
Variable damage looks pretty clear to me.
I like the combat as it is. Deadly suits me. My players know they can't just barge into combat and assume they're going to come out of it alive, they have to consider very carefully before deciding what to do 'cos I'm not going to load it all their way. But I s'pose it depends on who you hope your target audience to be. Younger players might find the deadly combat frustrating. On the other hand it might teach them to think before they draw their swords!
Possibly some sort of optional mechanism designed to keep inexperienced players alive?
On scale: there are no humans at all in Redwall. I think you've got the scale issue just right; ignore it.
I did notice one error. On the Kind charts it says Badgers get +1 STR, but in the text it says they get +2. I assume +2 is the correct number. They're badgers after all
Looking good so far. Only problems I can see with it so far is all just stuff inherent in converting the Swords & Wizardry text to something else (I did something similar with Backswords & Bucklers). It'll get there with enough proof reading.
Looking forward to seeing the finished version, and I really wish I could get my players to try this!
"If you like the idea of Blackadder II and Kit Marlowe getting drunk and fighting cultists and Spaniards in the London sprawl then check this baby out" - Jeff Rients
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,327 Location: New Hope, MN Karma: 93
Re: Woodland Warriors « Reply #13 on Mar 1, 2011, 10:34pm »
The variable damage is clear---I meant to say (not very clearly, obviously!) that each weapon does a variable amount of damage as opposed to a set amount of damage.
I don't mind deadly combat, but it seems to me that perhaps it'll end up being deadlier than was intended. Frex, all 2HD creatures will roll two dice for HP, as opposed to, say, a warrior, who'll roll a die (with a bonus) at first level, but only gain more HP at second level if his second die roll exceeds his first. The monsters could easily roll a six on one die, and a three on the second, and get the total of nine, though the character who rolled the same would still only have six HP. On the other hand, the text does mention that characters won't die until knocked down to negative HP equal to their level, while the monsters don't get that cushion.
Anyhow, as has been pointed out, playtesting will tell!
I guess I'll have to agree to disagree with you guys on the scale thing!
Undead as unequivocally evil makes sense to me, as they're essentially unnatural.
I definitely get the Scout as loner thing; it just would frustrate me as a player of one to reach 6th level and just...carry on the same.
I was thinking more about Warriors, too. Maybe this is the influence of reading the 4e Essentials books, but every other class gets something when they go up a level---spells, and skills. I mean, warriors get more HD than anyone else, but that seems kinda pale. Maybe they could get an extra attack at some point? I don't know, just thinking out loud.
I was pressed for time before, but want to be sure to mention that the setting looks like it's shaping up nicely. The names are perfect!
Joined: Jan 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 233 Location: Gloucestershire, UK Karma: 10
Re: Woodland Warriors « Reply #14 on Mar 2, 2011, 4:41am »
I believe you may have misread something somewhere.
A second level warrior will roll 2 dice at second level. If that total exceeded his previous number it would go up.
Following your example: The 2HD creature rolls a 6 and a 3, giving them 9 hit points.
The warrior rolls a 6 on his first dice. At second level he would then roll 2 dice. If he got a 6 and a 3 again, he would now be on 9 hit points. But if he had rolled a 2 and a 1, he would still have 6 hit points.
There was a discussion somewhere over the numbers, but in theory characters made using this method should get slightly higher HP overall. Re-rolling every level allows them to fix bad dice rolls made earlier, whilst never dropping.
Could be worse, when running OD&D I subscribe to the "roll your hit dice every session" theory.
I agree, the Scout should have something. But I think they should still be loners. Perhaps something along the lines of getting some kind of legendary forest hideout where they gather together miraculous beasts. Or something.
As warriors get more hit dice faster, they do get more attacks. So I don't think they should get extra attacks. Not sure what you could add instead. Except perhaps for some different types of skills. Or possibly some benefits to leadership and that sort of thing. Personally, I don't think fighter types need anything else in this sort of game. For a starting player it means they don't have too much to worry about, and for more advanced players they can concentrate on hirelings more, and doing interesting things in battle. But it's a common complaint, so perhaps something could be done that doesn't make the warrior difficult for new players.
Simon:
Just noticed that the rules aren't very clear on whether when attacking multiple opponents you have to split your Hit Dice out between them or not? At the moment as it reads, if you have 2 HD you can attack two creatures with 2 hit dice.
"If you like the idea of Blackadder II and Kit Marlowe getting drunk and fighting cultists and Spaniards in the London sprawl then check this baby out" - Jeff Rients
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