Examples of Play and Refereeing « Thread Started on Aug 28, 2011, 1:42pm »
I have always enjoyed reading the examples of play and the exchanges between the 'Caller' and 'Referee' such as the ones presented in The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures and in M.A.R. Barker's Empire of the Petal Throne.
I often wonder if these examples are accurate in their presentation, albeit without context or inflection of voice, mood, etc., of how Gygax and Barker actually ran their games. The examples of play in description seem awfully sparse, which I like. The game seems to be more focused on events instead of on some kind attempt at literary or thespian exercise.
I guess what I am curious about is how "old-schoolers" play. It would be interesting to see transcripts of how various folks run their games and how closely they may or may not resemble each other and their predecessors and how this has changed or not.
Re: Examples of Play and Refereeing « Reply #1 on Aug 28, 2011, 2:39pm »
I always liked those too, particularly the ones in the Holmes & Moldvay sets. They are great "flavor" text. Holmes seems to have written the one in the Holmes set. In Dragon #52, he indicated that he wasn't in favor of the "Caller" rule but kept it because it was in the original rules, so I don't think the example is reflective of his actual play, which he described as "Usually everybody talks at once. The resulting confusion is much more lifelike; one can hear the characters dithering away at the cross corridor as the monsters approach".
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
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Re: Examples of Play and Refereeing « Reply #2 on Aug 28, 2011, 10:53pm »
If you all talked at once in Gary's game, God help you because nobody else would. The example in the LBB is pretty much dead on. We had a "caller" because he was also the "mapper"; how do you give directions if you don't know what the map looks like?
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
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Re: Examples of Play and Refereeing « Reply #3 on Aug 29, 2011, 5:32am »
Most of my early gaming was with a referee and 2-3 players, and we never used a caller. I suspect that if we had large groups then we might have resorted to this, but for smaller groups it never seened needed. We just took turns.
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Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
I think people perhaps misunderstand the amount of what the "caller" did. Once combat started each person handled their own character.
One example being Steve Jackson, when he designed his first RPG with a little inspiration from D&D. In The Fantasy Trip: In the Labyrinth, the example of play includes a caller who *does* say what each character is doing, although the player can override those directions.
Just using a caller during exploration makes a lot more sense.
Re: Examples of Play and Refereeing « Reply #6 on Aug 30, 2011, 12:27am »
I think the caller only becomes a requirement for large groups.
I run for a group of four, sometimes five, who handle their own actions just fine. During exploration movement whoever is physically at the front of the marching order is kind of a pseudo-caller saying where he or she leads the party, but the other party members often chime in with their own ideas and opinions. We also aren't afraid of splitting the party and so you might have a couple of groups running around at the same time. When exploring a room or piece of corridor in depth I take individual actions from the players going clockwise around the table (which is also the order in which they give combat actions).
Now, I think Men & Magic talks about games with up to 20 players per DM and in that situation I could definitely see a caller as necessary.
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Examples of Play and Refereeing « Reply #7 on Aug 30, 2011, 9:03am via the ProBoards Mobile App »
I've used both in my games, though only recently began using a caller idea. Especially since our games can often include pre-teens, teens, and adults I stress the "team" mentality and make them discuss beforehand their declared actions, etc. I'm not hard and fast with this, and bring it back to the individual players during combat rounds. It seems to really bring the players together a lot more and helps the younger ones learn better "group think." I also have a lot less confusion at the table without people talking over one another.
So far, everybody, players and myself find the caller system works better for *us* As always, mileage may vary!
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Re: Examples of Play and Refereeing « Reply #8 on Aug 30, 2011, 10:14am »
I use a caller for any group over 3 players when I am DMing.
It seems to help a lot, especially with dungeon adventures.
I tend to type out very detailed Dungeon Keys with text of room descriptions to be read aloud--I find that after reading the description, the caller system lets the players quietly discuss what they want to do while I re-read the secrets of the room and jot notes for any encounters or traps.
By the time I look up from this, the caller has a neat presentation for me of what the party is going to do. I've had time to study the room anew, and they have had time to think about what they want to do.
Having a caller does not tend to eliminate the need for being questioned by all of the players but they should try to have the caller ask the questions.
I also ask my players to roll their combat and damage die all at the same time when we are doing battles--saves a bit of waiting.
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Re: Examples of Play and Refereeing « Reply #9 on Aug 30, 2011, 12:30pm »
Using the caller as a method to buy some time for the GM is actually a pretty cool idea!
For darkling and others who think that a caller is really only useful for large groups: you may be mistakenly thinking of the caller as the *leader*, or that other players aren't allowed to say anything. It might be helpful to compare this to a couple other practices.
You know how some people use strict separation of in-character and out-of-character discussion? Especially in on-line games, such as... here?
You know how a lot of the indie games have a "free and clear" procedure, where everyone, players and GM, discusses what they might do, makes a decision, and then basically says "this is what everyone is doing?"
The caller is like that. Having a caller is just a way to mark "what we actually do" as different from "what we are talking about doing".
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Re: Examples of Play and Refereeing « Reply #10 on Aug 30, 2011, 1:13pm »
I have implemented a caller in my play-by-post games just to keep the game moving. People have one day to give input and then the caller posts what the party is doing
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
The caller is like that. Having a caller is just a way to mark "what we actually do" as different from "what we are talking about doing".
I just don't think I have ever seen this type of confusion crop up in an actual session. I agree that the caller idea is a good solution to that problem if you run into it.
I have implemented a caller in my play-by-post games just to keep the game moving. People have one day to give input and then the caller posts what the party is doing
This I get. Keeps threads clean and things straightforward, but that's because there are possibilities for confusion in meaning that arise due to the medium and it is important to minimize those.
Do people not map? I can't imagine everyone at the table mapping, and I can't imagine making useful decisions on directions, etc., without a caller.
Or is the paradigm of "the layout of the dungeon is part of the puzzle" no longer used?
Oh we definitely have a designated mapper and I love fiendish dungeon layouts. One of our players is a geometry teacher and quite enjoys keeping the party maps, but I don't see any relation between the jobs of a mapper and a caller.
In short, I see the caller as a good way to reduce confusion about player actions. But if that confusion isn't arising in the first place, I don't see much need for it. And I am honestly not sure how that confusion arises, because that doesn't seem to happen with my group. I would definitely consider using one for an online game, and I would certainly use one for a large group or in a circumstance where inexperienced players outnumber experienced players. But for my normal group the idea just seems extraneous. Maybe there are differences in our playstyle that just aren't apparent from talking about things abstractly
Do people not map? I can't imagine everyone at the table mapping, and I can't imagine making useful decisions on directions, etc., without a caller.
Or is the paradigm of "the layout of the dungeon is part of the puzzle" no longer used?
Most games that I've played in the GM draws the general layout of what we see on paper with pencil (if not using miniatures) or on a battle mat (if using miniatures). When I first starting gaming I was always GM and I described the environment to the players one of which mapped it on a piece of graph paper. However, now I find having the GM draw what the players see speeds up play rather than waiting on a player to draw what the GM is describing.
The caller is like that. Having a caller is just a way to mark "what we actually do" as different from "what we are talking about doing".
I just don't think I have ever seen this type of confusion crop up in an actual session. I agree that the caller idea is a good solution to that problem if you run into it.
I'm not really talking about solving a problem. I'm talking about an agreement between the GM and the players that the GM isn't going to exploit player mistakes until the caller, on behalf of the party, essentially says "this is our decision".
It's basically an extra saving throw against things like "I stick my hand in the mouth of the green devil face".
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