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Number of Wandering Monsters Appearing « Thread Started on Mar 12, 2011, 4:19pm »
According to page 11,
Quote:
"If the level beneath the surface roughly corresponds with the level of the monster then the number of monsters will be based on a single creature, modified by type (that is Orcs and the like will be in groups) and the number of adventurers in the party. A party of from 1–3 would draw the basic number of monsters, 4–6 would bring about twice as many, and so on.
So if a party of three characters is on the fourth level and encounters wandering ogres, they will encounter only one ogre. A party of six would encounter two.
What about orcs? Suppose a party of three characters on the first level encounters wandering orcs. How many are there? There should only be the basic number of monsters, but how many orcs (which are found in groups) comprise the basic number?
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Re: Number of Wandering Monsters Appearing « Reply #1 on Mar 12, 2011, 8:19pm »
My approach is to compare the current (adjusted) dungeon level to the level chart the wandering monster appears on.
base level -1: 2d6 to 6d6 base level: 1d6 to 2d6 base level +1: 1d6-2 to 1d6 base level +2: d6/2 base level +3: 1 to d6/3
For the strongest monsters on a given chart, use the lower number. For weaker monsters, use the higher number. Similarly, for monsters normally found in small groups, use the lower, and for those found in large numbers, use the higher.
So: orcs are on the Level 1 chart and are normally found in large numbers. A first level encounter (base level) will be with 2d6 orcs. On the 2nd level, it will be higher: maybe not the full 6d6 possible, but certainly at least 3d6 or 4d6.
I say "adjusted" level because below 4th level, the random monster charts seem to assume the base level = dungeon level/2 +1.
Not that bad of an approach... My numbers are kind of arbitrary, too. I don't even remember how I arrived at the dice listed, but it works for the ogre example (ogres are Level 4 monsters, so you should only find 1 or 2 on the first level.) The numbers are about what they should be, but they don't match the quoted passage from U&WA.
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Re: Number of Wandering Monsters Appearing « Reply #8 on Mar 14, 2011, 5:38pm »
There are a couple of other ways of handling this based on Gygax and Arneson's writings. Arneson assigned "points" to each level of a dungeon based on the unit costs in CHAINMAIL. On pg. 7 of wilderness and underworld they say;
Quote:
...the number of monsters is best considered by the level (of the dungeon) being considered and they type of monster
later on they say that in a 10' passage only 3 abreast with the balance behind or coming from a different direction. As an asside, dungeon/cave orcs are different from village orcs.
since the number appearing is 30-300 I would say perhaps that (after determining the size of the tribe) that no more than 30 orcs X dungeon level will be encountered. 30 on the 1st level, 60 on the second etc.
So if it's determined when making your 1st level dungeon you roll up a room full of orcs, I would put the number at 30. If encountered outside of this room as a wandering monster then perhaps simply roll 3d6 for the number and include a 2 HD leader (as OSRIC calls it a "war party"). If found outside of their lair, pg. 7 of monsters and lairs says they can be found in groups of 10-80 guarding wagon trains (10 per wagon up to 8 wagons) and lead by a 7-11th level human master.
Arneson's own system from FFC was to assign a number of points to each level of a dungeon (perhaps 100) and using the numbers from CHAINMAIL unit costs, fill each level thusly. So the 1st level of a dungeon might have 66 orcs and no other monsters, or perhaps 2 ogres and 40 orcs (15x2+1.5x40 = 100) or 2 ogres, a 4th level magic user and 26 orcs (15x2+20x1+26x1.5 = 100)
LLB's are clear that once a creature has been rolled for, either in the wilderness or in the dungeon, it is assumed the referee will incorporate these creatures into the game world.
"If the level beneath the surface roughly corresponds with the level of the monster then the number of monsters will be based on a single creature, modified by type (that is Orcs and the like will be in groups) and the number of adventurers in the party. A party of from 1–3 would draw the basic number of monsters, 4–6 would bring about twice as many, and so on.
So if a party of three characters is on the fourth level and encounters wandering ogres, they will encounter only one ogre. A party of six would encounter two.
I'm surprised to see this sort of encounter scaling to the size of the party specified. I would have thought that was a no-no.
So if a party of three characters is on the fourth level and encounters wandering ogres, they will encounter only one ogre. A party of six would encounter two.
I'm surprised to see this sort of encounter scaling to the size of the party specified. I would have thought that was a no-no.
At least it doesn't scale to their average level.
I think scaling to party size can be justified "realistically" as large party sounds bigger, so more monsters go to investigate.
Okay, so both you guys are saying, "No answer found in the book."
I think there was an intended and specific meaning, exactly what is the question. My reading of that is that it is key to match dungeon level to HD level to party numbers.
The "basic" "number of monsters" = 1HD per level per 3 PC's
So, to answer the question, 3 PC's on level one should encouter 1 orc, on level 1 2 orcs on level 2 3 orcs on levle 3 and so forth. But orcs travel in groups, so there should be at least or about 2. 4-6 PC's might encounter 2-4 orcs, give or take, etc.
For a 4 HD Ogre, from levels 1-3 there would only be 1 ogre. On level 4 there would be 1 for 1-3 PC's, 2 Ogres' for 4-6 PC's etc.
Not difficult to figure when the HD of monster and dungeon level match. Gets fuzzier when that's not the case, I think.
We thought we were crazy, but we had a great time. - Dave Arneson
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Re: Number of Wandering Monsters Appearing « Reply #12 on Oct 21, 2011, 6:44am »
I probably would roll 1d6 orcs per couple of characters. On the other hand, I also like to use a hit-kill system for orcs rather than track their HP. (Sort of a "mook" rule.)
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
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Re: Number of Wandering Monsters Appearing « Reply #13 on Oct 21, 2011, 8:31am »
If the level beneath the surface roughly corresponds with the level of the monster then the number of monsters will be based on a single creature
I read "the number of monsters will be based on a single creature" as meaning; the Number Appearing roll is read as one for one.
If you accept that then; The Number Appearing statistics throughout assume that monsters are encountered on a dungeon level equal to their HD (or equivalent). When encountered elsewhere, adjust the number appearing accordingly.
So.
Ogres are 4 HD monsters with 3 to 18 appearing on the 4th dungeon level. On the 2nd dungeon level only half many would be found (2 to 9), and on the 1st dungeon level one quarter as many would be found (1 to 4). Meanwhile, descending to the 6th dungeon level, half as many Ogres again as would be found on the 4th level occur (5 to 27), and on the 8th dungeon level twice as many as would be found as on the 4th level occur (6 to 32). And so on.
What about orcs? Suppose a party of three characters on the first level encounters wandering orcs. How many are there? There should only be the basic number of monsters, but how many orcs (which are found in groups) comprise the basic number?
Orcs are 1 HD monsters with 30 to 300 appearing on the 1st dungeon level (across the whole of the level, not all crammed into one room unless it is vast). If they occurred on the second dungeon level, then twice as many would be present (60 to 600). And so on. The narrow confines of a dungeon will mean the players are unlikely to realise the full strength of such a foe immediately...
You can scale those numbers up or down if you think your players are a larger or smaller group... but I don't think you need to because although the risks are higher for a smaller group, so too are the rewards greater as any treasure would be divided among fewer victors.
It's up to the players to decide which challenges they can handle, and which are best left well alone.
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Re: Number of Wandering Monsters Appearing « Reply #14 on Oct 21, 2011, 11:23am »
mmmhmmm. I see what you mean Ways and agree it could be read that way and there is a certain elegance to it. However that would contradict I think the Number Appearing note in M&T pg 4, "*Referee's option: Increase or decrease according to party concerned (used primarily only for out-door encounters)." The 1eMM has something similar in another of Gygax's cryptic descriptions "Number Appearing... is not generally reccomended for use in establishing the population of Dungeon Levels." p5.
If so it wouldn't be the only contradiction in the rules.
There also notes in the FFC and elsewhere that indicate the intent of the number range given is for Number Appearing in a Hex or Lair, not number "wandering" about. The PC's should only be encountering some subset of that number except in the case of some monsters with small populations that the PC's may find in Lair.
So I think Gygax's statement above is an effort to scale wandering encouters to small events within PC strength to handle, assuming smart PCs would be sticking to Dungeon Levels similar to thier character Level. That would also fit with how we know wandering monsters were handled later - smallish numbers the party can usually handle. If on the other hand 3 first level characters on a first level dungeon encounter a "wandering" 30 to 300 Orcs flooding into a room...
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