Joined: Nov 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 1,555 Location: Austin TX USA Karma: 152
Re: D&D Next Playtest Material « Reply #30 on May 25, 2012, 11:16am »
Interesting change: individual initiative, rolled with d20 and modified per DEX and surprise.
I've played with individual initiative but have always returned to group initiative. Nothing strongly against it but I've always been in favor of game-flow.
Not a down check, and I'd probably give it a go as written in the interest of playing the game as envisioned by its creators before considering changing it.
It's still too crunchy for my liking but less so than 3E and that can only be for the good.
I haven't had a chance to read it yet, downloaded, but not read...but I didn't have much trouble ignoring a lot of the "crunch" in 3E. If 5e is less crunchy to start with it should be even easier to ignore.
Kelmult Dwarven Fgt-2 Olaf, the very lucky...so far! Human Fgt-2 Yusuf Kamal(Chainmail & Shield: AC 4, MV 6, HD 1, XP: 0, hp 6. #AT 1. 1d8 Sword, 1d6 Bow, 1d4 dagger x 2. Lucky Amulet, rations, waterskin x 2. GP: 0. [gold necklace & jewelry case with a few silver rings & bracelets...est. 70 gp])
Notwithstanding the foregoing, you may publicly discuss your thoughts regarding the D&D Next Playtest Materials and your play testing experience.
Given that the NDF was only 1.5 pages long, and given the above statement from it, I read that as giving permission to talk about anything in the materials, from writing style to mechanics, and anything regarding using those materials, both here and on my blog. If they have a problem with that, they can let me know.
Kesher, it sure seemed to me that the NDA(F) was aimed mostly at not distributing the playtest material rather than not discussing it. I think they'd prefer the discussion to be on *their* forums, but I didn't actually see where the NDA said we couldn't talk about it elsewhere.
Kelmult Dwarven Fgt-2 Olaf, the very lucky...so far! Human Fgt-2 Yusuf Kamal(Chainmail & Shield: AC 4, MV 6, HD 1, XP: 0, hp 6. #AT 1. 1d8 Sword, 1d6 Bow, 1d4 dagger x 2. Lucky Amulet, rations, waterskin x 2. GP: 0. [gold necklace & jewelry case with a few silver rings & bracelets...est. 70 gp])
However, I thought Target 20 was based on getting a 20 for a hit (dice roll + modifiers, including AC must be over 20). In the Playtest, the target seems to be the opponents AC (pg 2, 11 of "How to Play"). So it's more like "Target AC".
I think AC10 is no armor based on the table on page 17, so that would require a target of 10 (roll 10 on d20) to hit. This is the same chance to hit as for a Lvl 1 Fighter to hit AC10 in AD&D, or any Lvl 1 character to hit AC9 in OD&D.
The modifiers to your die roll in 5E are yr STR modifier (-5 to +5), weapon or magic training, and situational modifiers.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Re: D&D Next Playtest Material « Reply #36 on May 25, 2012, 8:02pm »
I really like a lot of the playtest document. If 5e is playable at this level of simplicity (ignoring any additional "modules") then I'd be very happy to play it. It actually reminded me a lot of Brave Halfling's version of S&W White Box in presentation. I would highly prefer playing from a document like this than a over-illustrated, unnecessarily thick, glossy, expensive hardback.
I like how the character sheets state (in a light font) "for a more old-school experience, ignore Backgrounds and Themes". Doing such would give you a game not unlike Swords & Wizardry with AAC. I think I would ignore the feat-oriented one (Themes I think) but Backgrounds have promise.
I'm worried it will be ruined by the playtest reactions from 3E and 4E people. I read some on the Wizards site, which was a mistake. One said something to the effect of "Ugh, I hate having to roll for hit points." Yikes, I wasn't aware how strange things had become I guess.
Joined: Sept 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 1,221 Location: Melbourne, Australia Karma: 195
Re: D&D Next Playtest Material « Reply #37 on May 25, 2012, 8:07pm »
I've had a quick read now (thanks!).
My initial impression is that they have done a good job of pulling it back from 4E. The result "feels" to me something like a 3E-lite-Basic hybrid, which isn't a bad thing at all; it looks like it could shape into a good game. Perhaps it is what 4E always should have been from the start.
But it doesn't look like the game I would have ideeeeally liked (not that it ever would have been)... a few quibbles; Why would you drop "Hit Dice", arguably the quintessential common feature across every edition of D&D? Why does a grey ooze, or any monster, need ability scores? Hit points look to be at risk of being too numerous (60odd for a medusa, 110 for an owl-bear, 130 for a minotaur) -- how many will giants, dragons, elemental have? Like wise, attack and damage adjustments are at risk of being over inflated (if a 1st level fighter has +7 to damage, what will he have at 4th, 8th, 12th level?). I guess a lot of players are right into their "big numbers", but think of the poor ref -- he'll require some kind of spreadsheet or accounting software to keep up.
I note also that a 1st level fighter with 20 hit points has to take 35 points of damage to reach -15 and die. (Assuming d8 damage in 5e versus d6 in 0e) that is near enough the same as a 8th level fighter in OD&D! He'd have to get hit, on average, eight times at d8 damage to die. Even the baddest monster in the play test (the minotaur) has to hit him, on average, three or four times to kill him (depending on which of its attacks hit). Is that a long grind to kill a first level fighter?
But all quibbles aside, the best news for me is that 5E doesn't appear to encroach into 0E or 0E-clone territory much at all, and for that I am very grateful. It looks like Delving Deeper has a real future! So in all I pretty pleased with what I've seen so far
I'm worried it will be ruined by the playtest reactions from 3E and 4E people. I read some on the Wizards site, which was a mistake. One said something to the effect of "Ugh, I hate having to roll for hit points." Yikes, I wasn't aware how strange things had become I guess.
Of course, if WotC is really interested in making both sides happy they could offer options for rules like this. Simply give a number of dice to roll or a standard equation to calculate, at the DM's option. Problem solved.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Jul 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 561 Karma: 17
Re: D&D Next Playtest Material « Reply #39 on May 25, 2012, 8:37pm »
Stats for grey ooze actually work, because stats are saving throws, so instead of looking through the book looking for what save vs. spells a 6HD ooze has (as in 0d&d) you simply roll d20+stat bonus.
I'm keen on the stat=saving throw. I really like advantage/disadvantage (replacing numerous +1 here and +2 situational modifiers)
Mearls has stated that hp are currently inflated so that they can test combats longer. I would like to see fighters starting with perhaps 12hp+con.
I really don't like all the fiddly DC's. Can't they just tell the DM the default DC is 15 and then use language in the description to guide the DM to raise or lower it as appropriate? Instead of saying the player needs to make a Str check (DC13) to climb out of the pit, just say the pit has a few hand holds and roots on the sides of a wall. If the pit is slick, slimey with no hand holds, the DM will intuitively know the DC should be 16 or 17.
Breaking up the narrative text with parenthetical target numbers makes my teeth grind and breaks the imersive reading I know I like to do when I read adventures.
Cantrips are easily house ruled out for a more old school feel. I really like the ritual pouch set at a gp value and the ritual rule.
It still appears the goal of an adventure is to systematically kill all the inhabitants as that seems to be the only source of xp. Gp treasure seems low.
Spells like charm person only working for 1 day limits a lot of RP and fun henchmen abuse.
Oe, Chainmail, Delving Deeper, Labyrinth Lord Society, GangBusters, Boot Hill 1e...
Joined: Feb 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 881 Location: Harrisburg, PA USA Karma: 72
Re: D&D Next Playtest Material « Reply #40 on May 26, 2012, 7:51am »
I joined the beta, printed the material out and will hopefully get a read-over today. T'was only because of all of the talk here about it piqued my interest. I'm, so far, more positive about the experience than I had expected. I've never played any D&D version beyond 1eAD&D and a brief foray into that mess of 4e, but from my cursory readings, I'm thinking this might seem like a "3e light" or something completely different?
I really don't like all the fiddly DC's. Can't they just tell the DM the default DC is 15 and then use language in the description to guide the DM to raise or lower it as appropriate? Instead of saying the player needs to make a Str check (DC13) to climb out of the pit, just say the pit has a few hand holds and roots on the sides of a wall. If the pit is slick, slimey with no hand holds, the DM will intuitively know the DC should be 16 or 17.
Agreed. My plan usually is to scrap the individual DC charts and use one general guideline: Trivial 1-10 Moderate 11-14 Advanced 15-18 Extreme 19-22 Master 23-26 Immortal 27+
I can "fake it" from there for almost any situation. All I really need to know if if something is particularly easy or hard and pick a number from a single chart. Saves a lot of time looking up numbers. (Having said that, I'm going to try a playtest game using their DC numbers to see how it works. If I hate it, back to the one-chart model! )
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Nov 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 310 Location: Montevallo, AL Karma: 34
Re: D&D Next Playtest Material « Reply #42 on May 26, 2012, 8:53am »
It's... an odd duck. There's potential for a good game, here. Several things I don't like. Several things I do like. Too much of the former to make me want to run it, but it's early in the playtest, yet.
I'm interested in seeing just how much survives the playtesting cycle, especially seeing as how WotC's current fanbase doesn't seem too thrilled with this first release.
I'm interested in seeing just how much survives the playtesting cycle, especially seeing as how WotC's current fanbase doesn't seem too thrilled with this first release.
That's an understatement!
I will probably drop out of the play-test, myself. The download link sent to me by e-mail still isn't working. At their advice I purged the cache of my browser and tried a few other things, including using MSIE (shudder) to attempt the download. No joy.
I note also that a 1st level fighter with 20 hit points has to take 35 points of damage to reach -15 and die. (Assuming d8 damage in 5e versus d6 in 0e) that is near enough the same as a 8th level fighter in OD&D! He'd have to get hit, on average, eight times at d8 damage to die. Even the baddest monster in the play test (the minotaur) has to hit him, on average, three or four times to kill him (depending on which of its attacks hit). Is that a long grind to kill a first level fighter?
Eh, damage and HP are hard to call before playtesting. If they are both inflated then it's the same as if neither are. Which is something they seem to have learned about to-hit bonuses. One of the things I hated about 4e was that there was this odd progression of AC and Hit bonuses that meant that the actual percentage chance to hit never changed even though the numbers kept climbing. Let's hope the final product shows a similar restraint on damage and HP.
Though, I don't mind it being difficult for a single monster to kill even first level characters. To my mind the point of having a whole dungeon is to make the players manage resources (like HP and spells) as they move through it. Sending them back to the keep to rest and heal every room they go through is just as bad as having them breeze through the whole thing with no danger (besides, there are always things like traps and/or surprising them with a medusa if you have a real hankering to put the character in a body bag).
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