Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #15 on May 10, 2009, 5:43pm »
I started playing red box Dungeons & Dragons (Mentzer), but switched to 2E Advanced Dungeons & Dragons when I graduated up to high school because all of my friends felt that it was "more sophisticated." After playing on-and-off for ten years, we switched to 3E, because... well, it was new. Like a frog being slowly simmered to death in a kettle of heated water, I kept playing as the editions gradually added more and more complexity until I finally got sick of cross referencing half-a-dozen books to figure out what an obscure feat did or how attacks of opportunity worked.
At that point, after 20 years of playing Dungeons & Dragons, I quit. I only recently discovered that people were still playing 0E and BD&D, which brought me back into the game with a vengeance.
Everyone else has mentioned it, but the simplicity is what makes the early editions great. The rules are so straightforward and easy that you can play the game without ever having to look things up. It's just raw, uninterrupted fun.
The symphony v. rock band analogy is pretty apt. I can't read sheet music, don't care enough to learn how to tune a timpani, and certainly don't want to argue about the superiority of Bach over Mozart. I just want to grab three friends, hand out instruments, and wail.
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Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #16 on May 11, 2009, 9:25am »
The only problem I have with the "Symphony vs. Garage Jam Band" analogy is that it implies that somehow 4e is more legitimate, cultured, or respectable, just as a symphony orchestra is generally viewed as more cultured and respectable musically than a jam band.
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Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #17 on May 11, 2009, 9:32am »
Well, I'd say that 4e is viewed as all those things. However, just as with music, a cultural perception or assumption certainly doesn't make it true...
I actually view playing ODD more like group folksinging...
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Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #19 on May 11, 2009, 11:05am »
So why do you prefer 0ed?
I'll start with a mini-review of DnD 4e from a Wizard perspective.
My group is about to test out the new DnD rules. we are using the 3 books form the core set. The PHB, the one I have had exposure to, is quite nice physically. IMHO, it has some of the best artwork. Most of it is not overly dramatic and the characters are dressed in sensible armor.
The book is 8 chapters long, to which 6 are devoted to character creation. The other two are devoted to equipment and combat.
Characters are generated with the same 6 attributes that have always been there. You get an array of numbers to set out 16 14 13 12 11 10. You may arrange these any way you want. These can then be modified by the racial pick.
You then get to pick a class. Within the class, you get to pick powers. Powers are spells or combat maneuvers your character can do. Each character gets 2 at will powers, 1 encounter power and 1 daily power. Casters get 2 or 3 daily powers but may only use 1 per day of their choice.
There are also feats which allow you to further customize your character. They can be combat, magic, thievery, holy or racial. These help make a character a little better at certain things. My wizard took ritual magic feat so he can cast ritual spells.
There are also skills which are usually non-combat in nature. The skill checks work similarly to 3e skill checks. roll a D20 and add mods. If you get above a certain target number you succeed.
So it sounds pretty good right? There is a nice combination to make characters different. you can pretty much play as you want within the class. Powers are a nice touch for fighters and other characters that were otherwise somewhat uninteresting before. The whole system has been streamlined for ease of use.
But that sounds pretty bad...no? The power system almost makes the game feel more like a super heroes game. Powers, while good for non-casters, are a little bit watered down for casters. You usually get 4 choices of spells per level of spells added. You get your "at will" and "encounter" powers that grow in power with the character. The daily powers are limited to about 4 per level when you add them. You do get a few utility spells at the same rate. The lingo seems a little terse or forced as if to say, "You must play this way or you will fail!" I don't like the MMORPG lingo they have incorporated and I'm not sure I am going to like the concepts relating to the same.
The miniatures rules in the game are more structured but there is a lot to take in. The book it self is over 300 pages. The core set is about 900 pages long! Holy COW!
Compared to OD&D clones, there is maybe 100 pages in any given set. That covers the whole shooting match! There are enough rules to keep it interesting and these sets are lite enough to not get things bogged down.
We all know about OD&D here so i won't go into the gory details. I like the old sets because it hearkens back to the days when you simply took a medieval setting with all of the legends and and lore. They feel realistic. Of course, in that world, those legends are real!
John
EDIT These are my initial comments before playing. Our first session is tonight. I'll post back and let you know how it went.
chronoplasm Level 5 Thaumaturgist member is offline
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Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #20 on May 11, 2009, 8:41pm »
Aw, come on guys. I haven't played 0E yet, but I want to because I am interested in having a jam session game to warm me up for the symphonic 4E games. I love 4E to death, and I want to love 0E to death too, but all this tension between the communities is really turning me off.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 9:08pm by chronoplasm »
Aw, come on guys. I haven't played 0E yet, but I want to because I am interested in having a jam session game to warm me up for the symphonic 4E games. I love 4E to death, and I want to love 0E to death too, but all this tension between the communities is really turning me off.
I have to agree with you. I think the problem comes even from the title of this thread---I mean, given the metaphor that's bloomed, it's as if it were titled: "The symphony must be better than punk rock, right?" Or, I guess I might be more inclined to say: "Prog Rock is better than Punk Rock, right?"
My point is, what's the point? These games are different entities sharing a few core characteristics; I don't think the premise question here actually has any meaning, not objectively anyway. We can certainly discuss their respective merits in the context of what we enjoy about playing one or the other, and we could absolutely discuss the interesting cross-connections between them. But discuss whether one is better than the other? It just comes down to a list of opinions, which isn't actually a discussion at all. Especially online.
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Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #22 on May 14, 2009, 2:28pm »
I don't even think they really share any important core characteristics anymore. I mean, D&D4 has as much in common with any other edition of D&D as Palladium Fantasy does, and few people would claim Palladium Fantasy was D&D (despite its origins as a house-ruled version of D&D).
But I agree about the tension between communities. Because of the violent, rabid, defensive reactions I've gotten from 4e fans for not liking the game (including being told I was playing it wrong, my DM sucked, and actually being tracked down in person at a con just to be shown the light of 4e) I can pretty much guarantee I'll never buy into that game.
I don't even think they really share any important core characteristics anymore. I mean, D&D4 has as much in common with any other edition of D&D as Palladium Fantasy does, and few people would claim Palladium Fantasy was D&D (despite its origins as a house-ruled version of D&D).
But I agree about the tension between communities. Because of the violent, rabid, defensive reactions I've gotten from 4e fans for not liking the game (including being told I was playing it wrong, my DM sucked, and actually being tracked down in person at a con just to be shown the light of 4e) I can pretty much guarantee I'll never buy into that game.
Huh. I thought all the animosity was between 3.5 and older editions. Since 4E is so blatantly a different game, I don't even see the need to compare it to what came before. I don't compare Axis & Allies to Samurai Swords just because they were both Milton Bradley GameMaster series boardgames. Or perhaps more apt, comparing Dungeon to Descent. I guess it's the use of the name D&D.
But I agree about the tension between communities. Because of the violent, rabid, defensive reactions I've gotten from 4e fans for not liking the game (including being told I was playing it wrong, my DM sucked, and actually being tracked down in person at a con just to be shown the light of 4e) I can pretty much guarantee I'll never buy into that game.
I get something similar, because my blog is a fairly well-known old school one. Even though my actual comments about 4e are vanishingly small -- I've probably directly referenced it a dozen or so times in 700+ posts over the last year and a half, I regularly get emails from 4e fans who seem to take umbrage at the fact I prefer OD&D and its retro-clones. My mind boggles at this, because, while it's true that I have read and intensely dislike much of 4e, I haven't ever launched into a concerted critique of it on Grognardia, nor do I hang out on blogs or forums where the game is discussed.
My opinions on the matter aren't secret, but I also don't trumpet them at every opportunity. I know what I like to play and that's largely what I talk about. Why that should invite people trying to denounce me or show me the error of my ways I have no idea.
Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #25 on May 18, 2009, 11:08am »
My game was Holmes (as close to OD&D as you can get, really). Simple rules, one rule book to 'rule' them all (48 pages if I remember correctly). You roll up some characters and just play. Being a kid in 7th grade I didn't have much cash for any supplements or modules so we'd have to make all this stuff up. In fact, back then, many games were like that. One set of minimal rules and you were encouraged to go to town.
I don't want my character to be born a 'superhero", I want my character to 'earn' being a 'hero' or die (a gruesome death) trying, but to each his own, I guess.
The artwork left a lot to the imagination and that's what the game is all about.
I don't like to feel that I'm being manipulated to 'buy product'.
I haven't played 4e but (as with 3.5) it just seems more like a marketing ploy than a game. 900 pages of rules? Ugh! (As a side note, I was turned off of 1E for the amount of rules though we did borrow from it quite a bit) It's the new game on the block and some just like whats new for no other reason than that.
The gaming guild in my town is all about 4e. They're ga-ga for it. Pre-release, they debated on 'upgrading' from 3.5 after spending tons of money on version books and supplements, etc. Nevertheless, they they are. I'm thinking of squeezing in a S&W game later this summer if I can dust off my GMing skills.
I'm rambling, it's too early and I haven't had any coffee yet.
--edit: removed town name so as not to cause any grumblings
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 6:04pm by blissinfinite »
Huh. I thought all the animosity was between 3.5 and older editions. Since 4E is so blatantly a different game, I don't even see the need to compare it to what came before. I don't compare Axis & Allies to Samurai Swords just because they were both Milton Bradley GameMaster series boardgames. Or perhaps more apt, comparing Dungeon to Descent. I guess it's the use of the name D&D.
It's exactly the use of the name D&D. Use of that name with an edition indicator clearly states, "this is the same game you've always played, just cleaned up and evolved a bit."
Then, to use your own analogy, you open it up expecting--and looking forward to--Dungeon, with maybe fancier figures, a more detailed board, and glossy cards...and instead they give you Descent.
kenmeister Level 5 Thaumaturgist member is offline
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Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #27 on May 18, 2009, 3:20pm »
I'm remembering now that awful commercial on youtube when 4E came out, lambasting the earlier editions, 3.5 included. "Ze game shall remain ze same!" I guess the marketing strategy is one of a superiority complex, and some of the gamers playing it have picked that up.
I don't even think they really share any important core characteristics anymore. I mean, D&D4 has as much in common with any other edition of D&D as Palladium Fantasy does, and few people would claim Palladium Fantasy was D&D (despite its origins as a house-ruled version of D&D).
3.5 especially seems to me to be very influenced by games like GURPS and RuneQuest.
Attribute + skill rolls, universal task resolution, point buy, official setting...all things that D&D started off not having, then other games got them, then D&D did.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 9:25pm by apeloverage »
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Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #29 on May 18, 2009, 10:00pm »
[deep booming moderator voice] Play nice or we'll ban 4E discussion forever! (echo of "ever" "ever") [/deep booming moderator voice]
Here's the thing. Lots of boards like DF have a total ban on any 3E or 4E discussion. I'd rather not go to that extreme. Hovever, it's true that these topics seem to degenerate quickly into fisticuffs instead of sunshine and flowers.
I was a little troubled by the thread title when it started, but it seemed to be mostly harmless until those last few posts. Keep in mind that this is still an OD&D board. Discussion of 4E will be tolerated as long as it remains polite and somewhat academic, but will be locked tight if it becomes finger pointing and name calling.
We've already got chronoplasm nervous about the tension, stories of people throwing barbs at jamesm for his blog, and poor greyelf has stories of 4E stalkers at game cons.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
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