Joined: May 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 339 Karma: 12
4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Thread Started on May 5, 2009, 9:41pm »
Obviously, many of us think otherwise, or we wouldn't be playing the original game or its many clones.
So why do you prefer 0ed?
For me, it is mostly because I am about the campaign, and the simpler mechanics make it much easier for me to modify the game. I can easily create new character classes, gods, monsters, etc. This is much more complex in 3.5, and infinitely more so in 4e.
I also like being able to tack other game systems onto my rpgs, such as minis battle games for resolving wars, chariot race games, etc. Again, it is much easier to convert back and forth between different systems if the rpg system is a simple one.
Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #1 on May 5, 2009, 10:52pm »
Definitely the simplicity. I'm just tired of the hour-long character creation process, and the min-max (excuse me, "optimization") attitude that predominates in 3e/4e games these days. I love how OD&D really forces you to be creative and actually interact with the game world, since there are no mechanical crutches to lean on and no tactical miniatures wargame combat rules. In addition, I've always loved tinkering with the rules; OD&D practically forces you to houserule, so I get to tinker to my heart's content. It's just a nice, light framework on which I can hang my ideas, that doesn't get in the way, and I love that.
Joined: Oct 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 679 Location: Lille, France Karma: 45
Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #3 on May 6, 2009, 4:50am »
After years of 3.5, I was tired of some aspects of the game (hours to create a high level NPC, all that feats, short duration spells, all that additions,...) and went back to Rules Cyclopedia, then discovered Labyrinth Lord. On the oldscholler forums, I discovered Od&d and its fascinated my archeologist imagination, love for history of rpgs and taste for tinkering games.
After years of 3.5, I was tired of some aspects of the game (hours to create a high level NPC, all that feats, short duration spells, all that additions,...) and went back to Rules Cyclopedia, then discovered Labyrinth Lord. On the oldscholler forums, I discovered Od&d and its fascinated my archeologist imagination, love for history of rpgs and taste for tinkering games.
Same here. I'm actively playing Rules Cyclopedia right now, and still in the "checking out" phase of OD&D.
Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #5 on May 6, 2009, 1:33pm »
It's the D&D I "grew up" with, although I'm probably more of a Holmes/AD&D than truly OD&D - it's only in the past year that I realized that Holmes *was* OD&D in a real way.
I also prefer the ability to more easily change/do things in 0E and I like the simplicity of it's approach. Say "Yes" or roll. I don't need skills upon skills, feats and powers, to be an adventurer.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Nov 2008 Gender: Female Posts: 12 Karma: 0
Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #8 on May 7, 2009, 10:50am »
It is ironic that OD&D was based on tactical miniatures rules and works in a simple manner, wheras 4E crams tactical miniatures rules into the game and fails miserably.
OE is a toolkit, flexible enough to allow one to notch it up to basically being AD&D, or to create a radical different type of world such as Carcosa.
I've looked thru 4E and wondered how anyone could play anything other than their generic, watered-down fantasy super-hero game with the rules.
Joined: Jul 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 1,307 Karma: 43
Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #9 on May 7, 2009, 10:57am »
Here's the funny thing about fourth edition, and it's just proof that WotC's designers don't get it.
4e claims to be trying to get back to the old school mentality of D&D--one of the designers, though I forget who, ran an OD&D game in the lunch room at WotC during design, supposedly for inspiration.
But what happened was that 4e tries desperately to replicate old school D&D through the extensive use of game mechanics to enforce what they believe to be an old school mentality. The problem is, that the old school mentality is to NOT USE GAME MECHANICS.
Not to mention, OD&D wasn't really intended to be used with miniatures--at least according to Old Geezer, who said over on RPGNet that Gygax never used them. Fourth edition pretty much requires their use.
Here's the funny thing about fourth edition, and it's just proof that WotC's designers don't get it.
4e claims to be trying to get back to the old school mentality of D&D--one of the designers, though I forget who, ran an OD&D game in the lunch room at WotC during design, supposedly for inspiration.
I believe that's Mike Mearls. There's a quote on Jeff Rient's blog:
"Yup, that's right. At WotC we're playing OD&D. I read Jeff Rients' report of his Winter War OD&D game, and I had to run the game." --Mike Mearls
Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #11 on May 7, 2009, 1:03pm »
I play OD&D and I paly 4th Ed. I think they both have their meirts. I use 4th ed for my Sword and Sandals / superheroic style games. When I play fourth Ed the players are special, chosen to be leaders and heroes. OD&D is my go to system for grittier pulp style games, where the characters start at the bottom and face seemingly insurmountable challenges. I wouldn't say I prefer one over the other.
I pretty much started getting into D&D with 3rd ed. 4th ed may be more complicated than OD&D, but it is simpler than 3rd by magnitudes.
Joined: Oct 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,224 Location: Argentina Karma: 51
Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #12 on May 7, 2009, 2:12pm »
I never played 4E, I don't own the books and only read the books once, very superficially. I just doesn't appeal to me. The art, the races, the classes and they way they are done, the style and attitude in which many campaigns are played in practice, the high page count crammed with many rules, not like EGG's DMG that while big, is mainly suggestions, inspiration, useful optional tables, etc.
But it's totally OK for someone to like 4E, I have no problem at all with that. In the same manner some people like to collect stamps and I really don't care at all about that. If that makes them happy, then good.
In the past I complained a lot about the "current edition", but now I think we have enough "support" coming out, and a big enough community to not care with what's "going on with the rest of the hobby".
one of the designers, though I forget who, ran an OD&D game in the lunch room at WotC during design
Jeez, guys, it was at this very board that Mike Mearls posted about his OD&D lunchtime game!
I think that his analogy there about OD&D being a jam session and 4E being a symphony shows that he does "get" the open-ended flexibility and radical three-chord simplicity that we all enjoy. The things I think about here are::
- a symphony does something different than a punk band or an improvizational jazz band (i.e. different strokes for different folks)
- the things that a symphony does well are in line with the direction that the D&D fanbase has been going almost since its inception (i.e., some of the strokes I like best have been far from mainstream for a long time, and 4E succeeds in actually doing the standardization & suitability for organized play that Gygax claimed AD&D was for).
- you can't sell sheet music to a bunch of improv punks (i.e. OD&D is for hobbyists, 4E was designed to drill a new wellspring for a game industry)
To stay on topic, what I like about OD&D is the impetus it puts on me to figure out my own rulings and interpretations, and how easily it handles different scales. For me, one of the great OD&D universal mechanics is the way that a turn can be a day of wilderness travel, ten minutes of dungeon exploration, or a comic book panel's worth of combat, and that tossing a handful of dice can let you quickly generate adventure & resolve conflicts for an individual or an army at any of those scales.
When I read mearls' posts like this one about sneaking through the Hill Giant steading, I feel as if skill challenges are that universal scaling mechanism for him, but they seem to suffer from a designer-in-the-box problem. I have a hard time making skill challenges work, even if I believe they do in his hands, and certainly they're a lot less straightforward and robust than similar OD&D mechanics. And for me, 4E is too wedded to the six-second-round microscale, with the result that resolving a combat takes much longer than approaching it or exploring its outcome.
OD&D hits a sweet spot where because it takes about the same amount of play time for you to travel through a hundred miles of wilderness, explore a level of a dungeon, or fight an intense pitched battle, all of these seem like equally valid ways to engage the rules of the game. I think the perception that 4E is purely focused on combat come in part from how much more play time it takes to fight an orc than to negotiate with it, and in part from the fact that skill challenges are so much more freeform than combat. In OD&D, a morale check is as mechanically defined as anything else in the system, and it meshes straightforwardly with other parts of the combat rules (e.g. roll morale when half of the enemy are killed), neither of which are true of any of the canonical examples of skill challenges.
Re: 4ed must be better than 0ed, right? « Reply #14 on May 10, 2009, 12:34pm »
Personally i like 0ed better. Although i'm still new to DnD (i've played 4e 3 times and 0ed once) but i think i have a feel for what each edition brings to the table. While the 4e is the newest i feel it doesn't stay true to how 0ed feels. They both give me good feelings but each are completely different. 0ed makes me feel that i am the character, i control every little thing i do and every breath i take. While 4ed feels very stiff, i feel constricted everytime i want to do something that isn't a set skill. 4ed is more of a feeling that you have a baby and you tell him how to grow up and in the end if he does everything right you become proud of him while 0ed i feel like i am the one ambushing the toad cultists and i get the feeling of accomplishment when i succeed
![[Home]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/home.gif "[Home]")
![[New Topics]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/topics.png "[New Topics]")
![[Help]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/help.gif "[Help]")
![[Search]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/search.gif "[Search]")
![[Login]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/login.gif "[Login]")
![[Register]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/register.gif "[Register]")
![[Search This Thread]](http://images.proboards.com/search2.gif "[Search This Thread]")
![[Share Topic]](http://images.proboards.com/new/buttons/share.png "[Share Topic]")
![[Print]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif "[Print]")
Author
Logged![[avatar]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/Morandir/Morandir.jpg "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4qI6i7wKX1c/SdZoRveimpI/AAAAAAAAADI/N5Grto0YRg4/S220/Mage.JPG "[avatar]")
![[homepage]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif "[homepage]")
![[avatar]](http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/images/avatars/goblinoidgames/210153305548cd4dcd40ac6.gif "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii277/ken-do-nim/kirin_small.jpg "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/finarvyn/avatar.jpg "[avatar]"){kind=avatar}
![[avatar]](http://www.freeyabb.com/trolllordgames/images/avatars/trolllordgames/49541430946ca706f3ab62.gif "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://www.elflair.com/images/mainlogo.jpg "[avatar]")