Joined: Jan 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 233 Location: Gloucestershire, UK Karma: 10
4E: On Running an Entirely Skill Challenge Game « Thread Started on Feb 23, 2011, 7:06pm »
Mentioned this in another area, and someone said they'd like to see a proper discussion of it. So here it is.
Alongside my OSR stuff (Backswords & Bucklers, plugplug) I run a 4th edition Essentials Campaign. My players wanted to play 4e, and with the new Essentials stuff seeming to take a step in the right direction I decided I'd like to give it a go too.
I love the more streamlined approach to skills and things that 4e takes over the horror of 3.x, and the skill challenge system has given us good, fun games where the players feel like there's a support there to help their roleplaying and improvisation.
But the combat is a nightmare. I'm used to running games with just a page of notes and playing it by ear, responding to the players and creating combats, monsters and other stuff on the fly if needed. But d**nit, this is nearly impossible to do in 4e without seriously slowing the game down. I also don't like essentially being forced to use a grid. I've never needed one before (I like to think I'm pretty good at visualising and describing action, I'm certainly good enough for my players).
Anyway, this means I have to spend valuable time I could be spending on a storyline and stuff plotting encounters. It takes a long time if you work through the books (as I do, I don't have easy enough access to a printer to be able to just print out the monsters I need). And on top of that, this really kills the back and forth between player and gamesmaster that I feel is vital to the enjoyment of the game.
That's not to say the combat system isn't fun in it's own way. It just gets in the way and bogs things down too much.
Right, so here's the proposal. I move almost everything over to a skill challenge mechanic, including most of the combat. I'd probably still use the standard combat system for the epic encounters and things, maybe one every session or two. But for everything else, skill challenge.
This makes thing's so much easier! In oldschool D&D I can get the numbers for the monsters just by deciding on the hit dice and a couple of other bits. Here, all I have to do is decide on the level of the skill challenge encounter and describe the opponents exactly as I want. And no grids!
However there are a couple of things that need to be considered:
1) How to integrate powers into the system? This might be an irrelevant question though, just make the attack roll against whatever difficulty you've set and a success is a success. The rest is all description. But this might not be appropriate for every power. Some powers might be used in other ways, to cancel failures for example, and all sorts of other things. The DM and players would have to be willing to improvise consequences for this sort of stuff as it happens I think.
2) Consequences of Failure. What happens when a player fails a roll? What happens when the character's reach 3 failures? I think this is down to the individual DM, but some guidelines would be useful I think. Take the normal damage expression for the appropriate level as a players consequence for failure perhaps? This could vary depending on what the monsters are like though. Conditions and things could be other consequences.
This would, in theory, allow me to run my relatively unstructured, heavily player led games using 4th edition. Which is nice. Anyhow, that's my thoughts on the matter.
"If you like the idea of Blackadder II and Kit Marlowe getting drunk and fighting cultists and Spaniards in the London sprawl then check this baby out" - Jeff Rients
Re: 4E: On Running an Entirely Skill Challenge Gam « Reply #1 on Feb 24, 2011, 8:12am »
I tried this way, too, but in the end it didn't work. Problem is, 4e is designed to be played on the grid. There is nothing you can do to change that, without changing the nature of the game.
Skill challenges also suffer from another problem: for a given skill, the player with the highest rank will always roll that skill. And since everyone will always be at least competent in most of the skills, the end result is a quite flat and boring process.
If the game allowed a restricted choice of skills (like in 3e) skill challenges would be meaningful, since some times a character would not possess the required skill at all, so the players would be forced to think something out. But since in 4e everyone can do everything (and within the same role, this "everything" extends to powers) skill challenges become only multiple skill checks.
Joined: Jan 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 233 Location: Gloucestershire, UK Karma: 10
Re: 4E: On Running an Entirely Skill Challenge Gam « Reply #2 on Feb 24, 2011, 9:23am »
In most of my skill challenges, each player takes a turn at making checks (with the possible assistance of other players) and gets to choose what skill/power they use. In most cases a player will only be allowed to use a particular skill/power once. So they don't always use the same skills. They have to figure out how to descriptively work other skills into the game.
In this case I would also allow players to suggest what effects they want from their successes. They might want to use a skill to negate a failure for example. Or daily powers might get multiple successes or effects depending on description.
So description *would* become more important than your usual skill challenge.
"If you like the idea of Blackadder II and Kit Marlowe getting drunk and fighting cultists and Spaniards in the London sprawl then check this baby out" - Jeff Rients
Re: 4E: On Running an Entirely Skill Challenge Gam « Reply #3 on Feb 24, 2011, 9:47am »
I am not sure I understand how you run it. If a Religion check is required, the party will obviously mandate the Cleric or the Paladin to make the check. If a Stealth check is required, the Rogue will step forward. Every class will have at least one skill in which it excels. Where is the players' choice?
Joined: Jan 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 233 Location: Gloucestershire, UK Karma: 10
Re: 4E: On Running an Entirely Skill Challenge Gam « Reply #4 on Feb 24, 2011, 10:31am »
If you run a skill challenge like that then no wonder you haven't had much joy with them. You never tell the players what skill they need to roll, and you never have only one possible skill to be used. You just describe the situation to the players, and then go round the table asking them what they're up to. Between you and the player(s) you figure out what skill or power they are using. Then you decide whether it's appropriate or not and how difficult it is. Most published skill challenges have a list of appropriate skills, but if a player can come up with a good enough reason I always allow other skills. There are other ways of running skill challenges of course, but I've always found this to be the best method. And as a support system for interesting and deep roleplaying its brilliant if handled right. And its nothing new, all this is in the dmg.
If you just tell the players they have to make 6 religion checks before they get 3 failures everyone is doomed to boredom. If the situation calls for only 1 skill, in almost every case it should just be a single roll not a skill challenge.
Try this and you might find yourself enjoying skill challenges, and 4e's skill system more.
"If you like the idea of Blackadder II and Kit Marlowe getting drunk and fighting cultists and Spaniards in the London sprawl then check this baby out" - Jeff Rients
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,327 Location: New Hope, MN Karma: 93
Re: 4E: On Running an Entirely Skill Challenge Gam « Reply #5 on Feb 24, 2011, 10:49am »
Hey! It was me who asked you to start this thread, and thanks for doing it!
I'm crushed by work deadlines for the next couple of days, but I'll get in here as soon as I can. I really think we need to start some serious Essentials discussion, and this is a great start.
Joined: Jan 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 233 Location: Gloucestershire, UK Karma: 10
Re: 4E: On Running an Entirely Skill Challenge Gam « Reply #6 on Feb 24, 2011, 10:58am »
Hi Kesher, good idea of yours to start it. No worries mate, I know the feeling working 2 full time jobs this week back to back to cover stewards holiday. These new-fangled internet smartphone things (perk of the job, too poor otherwise) are handy
"If you like the idea of Blackadder II and Kit Marlowe getting drunk and fighting cultists and Spaniards in the London sprawl then check this baby out" - Jeff Rients
If you run a skill challenge like that then no wonder you haven't had much joy with them. You never tell the players what skill they need to roll, and you never have only one possible skill to be used. You just describe the situation to the players, and then go round the table asking them what they're up to. Between you and the player(s) you figure out what skill or power they are using. Then you decide whether it's appropriate or not and how difficult it is. Most published skill challenges have a list of appropriate skills, but if a player can come up with a good enough reason I always allow other skills. There are other ways of running skill challenges of course, but I've always found this to be the best method. And as a support system for interesting and deep roleplaying its brilliant if handled right. And its nothing new, all this is in the dmg.
If you just tell the players they have to make 6 religion checks before they get 3 failures everyone is doomed to boredom. If the situation calls for only 1 skill, in almost every case it should just be a single roll not a skill challenge.
Try this and you might find yourself enjoying skill challenges, and 4e's skill system more.
Sorry I haven't been clear. I don't run skill challenges like that, it was just an example. But from the situation, the players should be able to infer what skill to use. And the group, as a whole, will pool resources so that each player will roll with his highest ranking skill, leading to the problem I delineated above.
Joined: Jan 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 233 Location: Gloucestershire, UK Karma: 10
Re: 4E: On Running an Entirely Skill Challenge Gam « Reply #8 on Feb 24, 2011, 4:28pm »
We must be doing something different because I can honestly say we've never found that to be the case. By making sure everyone *has* to do something and cannot repeatedly use the same skill, I find my players come up with interesting stuff all the time.
"If you like the idea of Blackadder II and Kit Marlowe getting drunk and fighting cultists and Spaniards in the London sprawl then check this baby out" - Jeff Rients
We must be doing something different because I can honestly say we've never found that to be the case. By making sure everyone *has* to do something and cannot repeatedly use the same skill, I find my players come up with interesting stuff all the time.
Do you impose that, e.g., the Rogue must use Religion and the Cleric, Athletics? If the players pool their resources like it should be by the nature of the skill challenges, then everyone is going to use her best skill. The main problem here is that everyone is at least competent. Between a trained and non-trained character there are only 5 ranks of difference. As the characters increase in level, the magnitude of the modifiers far exceeds the variance of the d20 roll, so that the checks become pretty meaningless.
It's not like in 3e, where you could have even 20 ranks or more of difference, and someone might not have a skill at all. With 4e, at worst one character will be 5 ranks below another one (assuming the same ability score.)
Joined: Jan 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 233 Location: Gloucestershire, UK Karma: 10
Re: 4E: On Running an Entirely Skill Challenge Gam « Reply #10 on Feb 25, 2011, 8:09am »
Well, no. But as each player must make more than one check, and they may not use the same skill/power twice in a row then they will have to use something different. Besides, different situations are going to call for different skills, which characters may not have.
And I don't see what's wrong with players pooling resources anyway.
I'm really failing to see what the problem is here... A Cleric's Religion Skill doesn't apply in every skill challenge. But in every skill challenge he is going to have to do something. So he has to figure out a way to descriptively work in one of his skills. Hence interesting description. Hence roleplaying.
And you are very wrong about the skill numbers. Because the difficulty target numbers also increase to keep roughly in line with the characters bonuses, those 5 points *always* make a difference. The player's feel like their skills are getting more powerful, but in fact they are always in line with the target numbers, more so in Essentials.
"If you like the idea of Blackadder II and Kit Marlowe getting drunk and fighting cultists and Spaniards in the London sprawl then check this baby out" - Jeff Rients
Well, no. But as each player must make more than one check, and they may not use the same skill/power twice in a row then they will have to use something different. Besides, different situations are going to call for different skills, which characters may not have.
And I don't see what's wrong with players pooling resources anyway.
I'm really failing to see what the problem is here... A Cleric's Religion Skill doesn't apply in every skill challenge. But in every skill challenge he is going to have to do something. So he has to figure out a way to descriptively work in one of his skills. Hence interesting description. Hence roleplaying.
And you are very wrong about the skill numbers. Because the difficulty target numbers also increase to keep roughly in line with the characters bonuses, those 5 points *always* make a difference. The player's feel like their skills are getting more powerful, but in fact they are always in line with the target numbers, more so in Essentials.
Nothing wrong with players pooling resources. That would be nice if everyone could contribute significantly. Let's put it this way: skill challenges embody one of the "features" (or bugs, depending on how you want to see it) of 4e: everyone is good at everything (or, no one excels at anything.) You can see it from the powers, feats, skills etc. of which everyone gets the same number with the same modalities.
About the skills numbers; no, I am not wrong, my point was, technically, that unless the DC of skill challenge is such that the range is within the one attainable by a basic d20 roll, the distribution is not linear anymore, and the difference is not 25% as you would be led to expect. For example: Suppose we have a DC of 30, one character has +5, so the probability of meeting DC30 is 0%. Suppose another character has +10 (let's say +5, +5 for being trained,) the probability of meeting or exceeding DC 30 is 5%. So, despite there being a difference of +5 between the twos, the difference in the chance of success is a mere 5%.
Also: what's the meaning of a difficulty which increases as the characters advance? Are you implying that the same challenge should come with different target numbers depending on the level of the PCs? Things should get more complex because they are intrinsically so, not because the PCs advance in level. If opening a lock is DC 20, I expect that for the same lock the same DC holds regardless of the character level, so that the PCs really have improved chances.
Anyway, in my experience the skill challenges don't work at all, and only prove that 4e needed many more passes at playtesting; the initial debacle on setting the number of successes shows how much thought was put behind it: i.e. close to zero. With a maximum difference of 25% for trained, and 0% for untrained skills (as always, all the rest being equal, including level) begs the question: why introducing skills in the game at all? In fact, the variation we have been playing with, is to introduce in the game as effective skills only the ones in which a character can be trained, which become sort of "special abilities." Everything else is an attribute check with a 1/2 level bonus. Some skills which don't appear in a class description are simply removed from the game.
Anyway, if you and your group are having fun, that's what's important, and good luck in finding a way of making 4e combat work
Joined: Jan 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 233 Location: Gloucestershire, UK Karma: 10
Re: 4E: On Running an Entirely Skill Challenge Gam « Reply #12 on Feb 27, 2011, 9:18am »
Well, I'd be the last to claim that 4e is a great game. But my players want to play some 4th edition, so I run it alongside my Backswords & Bucklers games. The point of the thread is me using the tools in the game to play something that the players will enjoy, I will enjoy, and that means I don't have to spend the majority of the previous evening plotting encounters I don't want to have to forcefully guide my players toward.
I'm not saying it's a good thing that the numbers increase to match the players, I'm just saying that's the way it works. It's just a trick. One I don't really agree with, but as with most things in 4e it's so integrated into the game it's not something you can easily change. On the other hand it makes things so much easier than 3.x's often ridiculous lists of DC's. You just have to decide whether something's easy, moderate or difficult and check the level for the dc.
Can I just ask which side of the screen you were on, and whether you've taken a look at Essentials?
I agree, 4e needed better testing before release. It's not really possible to play beyond a certain level with the original 3 core books because the monsters are broken. This is because wizards adopted a testing policy similar to a certain software manufacturer: they get the customer to pay to test it for them and then fix it in endless patches, which naturally you have to pay for.
But having refused to buy into the game at the beginning when it was broken, I had no problem (well, not much of one anyway) buying into Essentials. Which fixes the majority of the numeric problems. There's even slightly less of the 'everyone can do everything' problem.
In my experience we manage to get some good games out of the skill challenge system. I'd rather use a different system, but it's what the players want. And as long as everyone's enjoying themselves, really that's all that matters.
"If you like the idea of Blackadder II and Kit Marlowe getting drunk and fighting cultists and Spaniards in the London sprawl then check this baby out" - Jeff Rients
Joined: Jan 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 233 Location: Gloucestershire, UK Karma: 10
Re: 4E: On Running an Entirely Skill Challenge Gam « Reply #13 on Feb 27, 2011, 10:41am »
Ah sorry, I had been typing that response up bit by bit all afternoon on me phone whilst at work, during spare moments. Only to find that your post had been edited between me reading it and me posting, so I apologise for any confusion that may arise between the two posts.
From the way you've now posted I can see that the question of which side of the screen you were on is irrelevant. Whether you are a GM or not, you've taken a look backstage as it were anyway. But my point about Essentials still is relevant.
I see your point about removing skills at all. But I think it makes it easier to just have them there on the sheet. But pretty much the same result in the end.
I haven't had a chance to check your numbers, but I still think that 5 makes a difference. But never mind.
Making 4e combat work is impossible It works at what it does ok. Which is basically a card game where you move bits about. But I don't believe it integrates into the roleplaying at all well, I find my players are roleplaying *despite* the system, instead of because of it. It's just too much in the way. It is quite fun in its own sort of way. And my players do enjoy the combat. But we all have much more fun with the skill challenges; I still say it gives a nice support structure there for people who aren't necessarily sure of their roleplaying and helps them along, and helps those of us who can't be spontaneously creative all the time and sometimes need a little spark to get us going, helps reinforce the fact that the players *should* be creative (something the combat system tries to destroy utterly) whilst allowing them to see that it is affecting things. And the more creative the players are being, the more creative I can be. It all depends on how you structure and run your skill challenges, but done in the right way I've found it to be a very effective tool. One perhaps that shouldn't be needed (we never have problems when the same people are playing Backswords or Tunnels & Trolls or anything similar), but I believe it could be because the combat system atrophies peoples creativity. And it's good for new players too.
Anyway, because the players do like to play the combats sometimes I think I'll do one every other session or so. Whenever it fits appropriately. And the rest of the time run it all as a skill challenge.
So taking the premise that the Skill Challenge works, whether you believe it or not; does anyone have any suggestions, thoughts, points of discussion we can work on?
"If you like the idea of Blackadder II and Kit Marlowe getting drunk and fighting cultists and Spaniards in the London sprawl then check this baby out" - Jeff Rients
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,327 Location: New Hope, MN Karma: 93
Re: 4E: On Running an Entirely Skill Challenge Gam « Reply #14 on Feb 28, 2011, 4:27pm »
Quote:
However there are a couple of things that need to be considered:
1) How to integrate powers into the system? This might be an irrelevant question though, just make the attack roll against whatever difficulty you've set and a success is a success. The rest is all description. But this might not be appropriate for every power. Some powers might be used in other ways, to cancel failures for example, and all sorts of other things. The DM and players would have to be willing to improvise consequences for this sort of stuff as it happens I think.
2) Consequences of Failure. What happens when a player fails a roll? What happens when the character's reach 3 failures? I think this is down to the individual DM, but some guidelines would be useful I think. Take the normal damage expression for the appropriate level as a players consequence for failure perhaps? This could vary depending on what the monsters are like though. Conditions and things could be other consequences.
This would, in theory, allow me to run my relatively unstructured, heavily player led games using 4th edition. Which is nice. Anyhow, that's my thoughts on the matter.
I'm not able to follow the conversation you guys have been having as well as I would like, given that I've only been reading 4e stuff, and just Essentials at that, rather than playing.
However, here are my thoughts, though I think what'd be really useful at this point is an actual example of what a skill challenge combat might look like.
Powers: I think you're on the right track, in terms of allowing Powers (and Feats, I imagine) to affect the rolls in multiple ways, though it would be easiest I think to simply work up a framework for dice bonuses for different types of Powers/Feats.
Failure: Any character who fails could take damage, either expressed as a variable or a constant, or an on-the-fly decision of damage vs. conditions. If the group hits three failures, everyone could take damage/suffer conditions. Maybe each skill challenge should represent one round of combat? That way a condition result would rollover consequence into the next round.
Conversely, you'd need to think about the consequences of success. It comes down, I suppose, to whether it works best to turn the whole combat round into one big conflict resolution, or use the skill challenge framework to more or less compress combat. If the latter, then every time all characters succeed on a check, the foe(s) could take damage.
I'm just throwing this stuff out right off the top of my head, but it almost seems to make the whole thing vaguely Tunnels & Trolls-ish, which is never a bad thing...
I have absolutely no idea of how, or if, to figure in Defenses...
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